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Forum » SpaceEngine » Feedback and Suggestions » Relativistic Effects Discussion
Relativistic Effects Discussion
HarbingerDawnDate: Monday, 18.03.2013, 14:12 | Message # 16
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Quote (SpaceEngineer)
Celestia have time travel delay

Yes I know that. But that's not time dilation.





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SalvoDate: Monday, 18.03.2013, 14:48 | Message # 17
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Even messages in chat will have delay? biggrin




The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.

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MilkyWay1994Date: Thursday, 21.03.2013, 03:31 | Message # 18
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I see. So time travel delay is like when an observer travels at the speed of light, the time around him or her is going faster relative to his or her own time?
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Thursday, 21.03.2013, 03:46 | Message # 19
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Quote (MilkyWay1994)
I see. So time travel delay is like when an observer travels at the speed of light, the time around him or her is going faster relative to his or her own time?

No. What SpaceEngineer meant is that it has light travel time delay, which means that the apparent position of objects on the screen is adjusted to account for the amount of time that the light took to travel from that object. For example, if at Earth looking at Jupiter, you will see it as it looked nearly an hour ago, rather than as it really looks now. That is what is implemented in Celestia. It has nothing to do with your movement, or relativistic effects.





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jon3858Date: Sunday, 31.03.2013, 20:04 | Message # 20
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Quote (MilkyWay1994)
I see. So time travel delay is like when an observer travels at the speed of light, the time around him or her is going faster relative to his or her own time?


The person behind this project is obviously an extremely talented programmer, but I'm curious to know how you expect them to implement actual time dilation in a multiplayer game smile
 
mike4ty4Date: Wednesday, 22.05.2013, 23:15 | Message # 21
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Yes, it probably essentially impossible in multiplayer, since simultaneity is relative in relativity. This is not a problem when all the "events" in the universe are algorithmically-generated, but is when they're not, as in a multiplayer game. One player's reference frame would have to include events in the past (in the actual past!) of another, and in the future (the actual future!) of still another. Yet all computers on Earth are pretty much in the same real-world reference frame, and one computer cannot peer into the past or future of another.

Edited by mike4ty4 - Wednesday, 22.05.2013, 23:17
 
Gondor2222Date: Monday, 17.06.2013, 09:37 | Message # 22
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MIT's (OpenRelativity) tool, if it can be translated into the programming language SpaceEngine is made in, may prove useful as a starting point for singleplayer special relativity simulations in SpaceEngine.

Edited by Gondor2222 - Monday, 17.06.2013, 09:38
 
Destructor1701Date: Tuesday, 18.06.2013, 01:58 | Message # 23
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Woah, I just tried their game, A Slower Speed Of Light... mind-bending.




 
Ralph_Coreduck_OpenheimerDate: Saturday, 06.12.2014, 12:54 | Message # 24
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After my first look in Space Engine I realized one important thing - that the speed limit is 100MPsc/s in "free roam". That's waaaay faster than speed of light.

Adding toggle called "relativistic mode" could change that. If someone would experience how really universe looks like when you travel at speed near of speed of light, then just toggle relativistic mode. Effects like increasing Field of View, doppler effect on stars, etc. could be enabled in this mode.

This suggestion is more like "cool feature". I understand, that this whole project needs to be fixed in many aspects, but I haven't seen before any other programs which can do that, so If Space Engine were first, that would be a huge feature.

Sorry for my major mistakes in that post. ;P


Edited by Ralph_Coreduck_Openheimer - Saturday, 06.12.2014, 12:55
 
SolarLinerDate: Saturday, 06.12.2014, 13:30 | Message # 25
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It would also limit your speed to 1 c. Which would take you about 8 minutes to go from the Earth to the Sun.

But I agree with you; to a certain extent, relativistic effects could be awesome to have.





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FastFourierTransformDate: Saturday, 06.12.2014, 13:49 | Message # 26
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Interesting idea.
In fact the great majority of time spent flying in Space Engine is above c. You would last for 8 minutes to reach the earth from the sun and something like 4 years to reach the nearest star so this limit has to be exceded for the player to see the actual structure and size of the universe. But we have a relativistic trick. Time dilation could allow the player to move to every point of the universe in a tolerable amount of time (from the moving frame of reference, also called player).

A relativistic mode would necessarily change the speed of the clock, the simultaneity of events (you could desynchronize eclipses from the shadows casted on planets for example), the lenghts of objects due to lorentz contraction (distortions around the field of view would appear) and the colors would change enormously across the field of view dependind on speed (infrared and ultraviolet frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum would turn visible due to doppler shift so the sources of other electromagnetic radiations would have to be added as textures for every object to make the universe appear as it is in those frequencies). The time dilation would make the travel faster for the moving observer, but the clock would get mad so maybe you could fly between galaxies in a tolerable small amount of time but the galaxies would start to rotate, move and collide meanwhile (taking into account also the changes in the simultaneity of events that would make the scene quite psychodelic and amazing).

As you can see, the idea could be extremely difficoult to implement, but I bet that Vladimir is going to do that one day.
First, Space Engine must have galactic rotation and collisions (procedural galaxies first for that), star motion and large scale structure evolution.

Second, Space Engine must render all the objects also for infrared and ultraviolet spectrum (at least), because you would see totally different things (not only different colour mapps).
For example, if you are flying near the speed of light to andromeda from our direction, the field of view would show the dust skeleton of the galaxy and HI regions, stars in different angels in the frame of view.

If you travel to the core, the center of the galaxy would appear something like in this image (because the infrared would be blueshifted to the visible frequencies):


A rainbow circumference centered on the direcction of motion would show you this structure:


And at the edges of the field of view you would see the UV sources of the galaxy:


Third, Space Engine must have a system to allow the creation of different "clocks" in space to allow the relativistic simultaneity to be coded as different moments depicted at the same time in different parts of the panorama.

Once this three extremely complex features are implemented, we could star to talk about spetial relativistic effects (they would be awesome). At that point I don't think relativity would be hard to add to the code, but we have to wait years for that I think.

For the consideration of Vladimir I want to share a free open-source software developed by the MIT that takes into account all of this phenomena and makes the code accesible to the simple addition for games ect... I downloaded it a few years ago and it was quite awesome to experience the space-time with a simple enviroment and very low speed of light limits.





What do you think? it would be utterly awesome to experience this on space with good spectral renderings cry (I think, no movie has ever shown this amazing phenomena in all its beauty)


Edited by FastFourierTransform - Saturday, 06.12.2014, 13:54
 
Ralph_Coreduck_OpenheimerDate: Saturday, 06.12.2014, 14:33 | Message # 27
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This is why that mode have to be toggled - not everyone want to spend so high amount of time to travel even to a Mars. But this mode could be really awsome. If we take into a count every EM source (including Microwave background) this kind of stuff could be hard to simulate. Even shorten volume of a planets... really hard to handle, but if it will be done pretty nice, that program could be even use in schools to show kids something pretty cool. I hope that somebody will take this idea into consideration, and perhaps - realize it in the future.

Edited by Ralph_Coreduck_Openheimer - Saturday, 06.12.2014, 22:02
 
WatsisnameDate: Saturday, 06.12.2014, 18:39 | Message # 28
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One problem I haven't seen anyone mention yet is that utilizing special relativity in SE would be utterly incompatible with the goal of a multiplayer game. Think of it -- if you travel from the Milky Way to M31 by accelerating to nearly the speed of light, then your trip could be arbitrarily short, even mere seconds if you allow very large acceleration. But about 2.5 million years must pass for everyone else who did not make that trip. How does SE allow for 2.5 million years of game-play for everyone during the span of a few seconds for you?




 
DeathStarDate: Saturday, 06.12.2014, 18:49 | Message # 29
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Would relativistic speeds be needed, anyways? I mean, you would be twisting space with the Alcuberrie drive to make the distance you have to cross drastically shorter, so luminal speeds would be a waste of resources.
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Saturday, 06.12.2014, 22:09 | Message # 30
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Quote Watsisname ()
with the goal of a multiplayer game.


This is true but there will always be a Sandbox and Planetarium which will be single player and Relativistic modes would be great for education and entertainment. Being able to fly ships with these effects and a max speed of 0.99c without a hyperdrive is a dream of mine.

To correct some of the points made by FastFourierTransform.

You do not need to do it that complex. It could be pulled off very cheaply in SE with some simple tricks.

First you could do it with color changes and not have to have UV or IR and still pull it off (semi-)realistically. The issue about clocks is also a moot issue as the engine supports speeds greater than c and time acceleration which is perfect.

Think of it like this

As you accelerate closer to c in SE the relativistic effects would kick in and the engine time would accelerate. This way you could speed things up locally as it would be perceived by the user and in engine it would be treated like normal time acceleration. At 1c all journeys would be instant but the engine would adjust the global time by however far you traveled. At 0.99c you would have all those crazy colors and distorted view and engine time would accelerate to match what you would experience on board a craft going that fast. This way if you flew to alpha centauri at 0.99c as you accelerate you would get the full distortion effect, engine clocks would speed up, physics would speed up, and you would arrive in a few weeks/months from your perspective or if you pushed to 1c the trip would be instant and the engine clocks would jump to 4.3 years in the future.

This kind of relativistic system could be implemented fairly simply.





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