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Forum » SpaceEngine » Feedback and Suggestions » Black Holes
Black Holes
anonymousgamerDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 14:24 | Message # 1
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http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/schw.html

I have no idea how hard this is to implement, probably impossible, knowing that this is some super advanced program he used. But, you know, just throwing the idea out there.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 18:52 | Message # 2
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I have thought about this before when flying near black holes in SpaceEngine. It would be very hard to implement, most likely beyond the ability of home computers to render in real time. But I'm sure that something could be done to improve the appearance of black holes, even though they already look pretty cool.




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TalismanDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 18:59 | Message # 3
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I love that link, that looks so scary, and that's most likely the closest we'll ever get to actually seeing how it would be to fly into a black hole. cool

I don't think it would be hard to implement, as Harb said black holes already look awesome, but all it would take is a more prominent lens effect as you get closer. (You could probably simulate it manually using the fish eye lense setting and FOV).

On another note, does anyone know what the actual black hole is made of? Supermassive black holes are several thousands of kilometers wide, so what is it actually made of? Just neutrons packed tighter then a neutron star?





 
anonymousgamerDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 19:20 | Message # 4
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Quote (Talisman)
On another note, does anyone know what the actual black hole is made of?


Literally, nothing. There is a singularity in the center..... made of stuff, but its infinitely small, with..... properties..? Someone else can explain these properties better.

But so yeah, the blackness is the event horizon, where the gravity is so strong all light gets pulled to the singularity. It's, I guess, just empty space where the laws of physics screw us over.

Edit: The link and Wikipedia, they'll give you answers





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Edited by anonymousgamer - Saturday, 30.06.2012, 19:23
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 19:45 | Message # 5
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Quote (Talisman)

I don't think it would be hard to implement, as Harb said black holes already look awesome, but all it would take is a more prominent lens effect as you get closer. (You could probably simulate it manually using the fish eye lense setting and FOV).

It would be hard to implement because you need to have a way of rendering the lens/warp effect with high quality (you'll notice that the current version gets very lo-res close up). And the exact lensing physics involved in making accurate-looking black holes are probably harder to implement and more resource-intensive that you might think. It might be possible, but it could also be deemed as low-priority since development time - and end-user system resources - could possibly be better allocated elsewhere. But that's just my own speculations, I don't have any particular knowledge on either point.

Quote (anonymousgamer)
On another note, does anyone know what the actual black hole is made of? Supermassive black holes are several thousands of kilometers wide, so what is it actually made of? Just neutrons packed tighter then a neutron star?

Black holes are dimensionless; they have no size at all. That is what a singularity is, a simple point. Location without dimension. There is no known force that can support the mass of as much matter as a black hole would have, so it collapses into nothingness. But the mass is still there, at that location, even if it now has no form. What we typically think of as the "size" of a black hole is really the radius of its event horizon, the distance from the singularity where gravity becomes too powerful to permit light - and therefore anything else - from escaping.

It's all rather complicated and not intuitive at all in the details of how it works, and even the greatest scientists that have been studying this for decades still have many fundamental questions on the subject.

On the other hand, if there is a force strong enough to resist gravity in an object more massive than a neutron star, then there could be a massive compact object at the center of stellar-mass black holes, since the radius of such an object would be smaller than its event horizon, like a quark star or something even more exotic. But there is no evidence to support this.





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DukeDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 19:48 | Message # 6
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There are already real-time implementation of some effects of such black holes:
Distortion of the stellar sky by a Schwarzschild black hole
http://www.vis.uni-stuttgart.de/~muelleta/IntBH/
Interactive visualization of a thin disc around a Schwarzschild black hole
http://www.vis.uni-stuttgart.de/~muelleta/IntThinDisk/
Visualizing circular motion around a Schwarzschild black hole
http://www.vis.uni-stuttgart.de/~muelleta/Torus/
 
apenpaapDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 19:52 | Message # 7
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Well, once a proper theory of quantum gravity is found, there will likely be no more singularity... We'll likely find that the core of a black hole is an incredibly dense and incredibly tightly packed collection of somethings, where the somethigns are smaller than quarks, and the whole thing will presumably be very small... But under current physics, we can't properly describe what happens after the pressure becomes so high neutrons, and then quarks, break down, so you end up with a single point of infinite density.




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Edited by apenpaap - Saturday, 30.06.2012, 19:52
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 20:01 | Message # 8
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Quote (Duke)
There are already real-time implementation of some effects of such black holes:

I did not know about this, thanks Duke. SpaceEngineer should see this if he hasn't already.

apenpaap, I completely agree. I was just restricting my explanation of black holes to known physics (which as you pointed out is inadequate to properly describe them).





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anonymousgamerDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 20:04 | Message # 9
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Quote (Duke)
There are already real-time implementation of some effects of such black holes


You are my savior

Edit: Actually I have no idea how to use this software lol. dry





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Edited by anonymousgamer - Saturday, 30.06.2012, 20:20
 
TalismanDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 23:00 | Message # 10
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
The "size" of a black hole is really the radius of its event horizon

Quote (anonymousgamer)
Literally, nothing


Ahaha, I wasn't thinking properly when I asked that. I just wanted to incite some discussion. cool
I think how solid and "matter" like they look in space engine threw me off.

Quote
But the mass is still there, at that location, even if it now has no form.

But it must have some form, even if we can't detect it, perhaps under such extreme gravitational forces it's crushed into basic boson particles while emitting everything else as hawking radiation. Although we can't even begin to accurately guess it's still fun to think about. There's most likely some quantum shenanigans going on that's actually really simple once we figure it out.





 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 30.06.2012, 23:30 | Message # 11
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Quote (Talisman)
But it must have some form, even if we can't detect it

As apenpaap said, it probably does, but under our current understanding of physics no such structure can exist. So everything is condensed into a dimensionless point. It has no form, since form would require dimension. That is how black holes are understood according to known physical laws. In the future we will probably discover something that will shed light on the subject of black holes and determine their actual structure and composition, whatever that may be. But as of now, we don't know - physics says it's just a singularity.

Quote (Talisman)
perhaps under such extreme gravitational forces it's crushed into basic boson particles while emitting everything else as hawking radiation

The central structure of the black hole does not emit any radiation. Hawking radiation is caused by anti-particle pairs popping into existence near the event horizon, then one particle is captured while the other escapes (or something like that).





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DukeDate: Sunday, 01.07.2012, 09:49 | Message # 12
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Quote (anonymousgamer)
You are my savior Edit: Actually I have no idea how to use this software lol.

Did you read installation manual for each of this demos?
 
anonymousgamerDate: Sunday, 01.07.2012, 12:01 | Message # 13
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Quote (Duke)
Did you read installation manual for each of this demos?


Yeah, it's too confusing for my feeble mind. I thought it was kinda stupid how you had to download additional files, he should of just included them already.





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SpaceEngineerDate: Monday, 02.07.2012, 05:13 | Message # 14
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To make the proper black hole visualization, I require only two things - rendering of entire scene in a cubemap (already done - fish-eye projection uses that) and a shader that takes the rendered cubemap and distorts it according to a real formula. Current black holes in SE uses simply background image instead of cubemap (it is almost free-of-charge, while rendering of a scene cubemap is very expensive), so SE cannot show you the light reaching the black hole from behind your back, curved and emitted back to your eyes. It just shows 8-shaped artifacts - edges of screen.

If the software that Duke has linked has good pdf's, is will be helpful for me to implement proper black holes in SE.

*





 
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