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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Education and the Future of Nations (The importance of education and its effect on world nations)
Education and the Future of Nations
Joey_PenguinDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 22:25 | Message # 61
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Correct. And a point of interest here, the fall of classical civilization was due primarily to Christianity. A one thousand year setback to civilization, courtesy of religion.


Religious teachings, in and of themselves, can be excellent rules to live by (Feed the poor, help the homeless, love thy neighbor). Religion gets dangerous when you believe that only YOUR religion is correct, and all others go to hell. That's when you forget your teachings and values, trying to force your beliefs down everyone else's throats to "save" them. This religious intolerance, bigotry, and lust for power over others is what is holding us back, not the actual religion. sad





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Edited by Joey_Penguin - Friday, 31.08.2012, 22:29
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 01.09.2012, 00:43 | Message # 62
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This religious intolerance, bigotry, and lust for power over others is what is holding us back, not the actual religion.

But many of those things are endemic to the religion, they cannot be separated without changing the religion entirely (I will refer primarily to Christianity here, but the same applies to many others). That these religions are correct to the exclusion of all others is written into the most fundamental teachings of most religions. The bigotry and intolerance expressed by Christians that brought about the fall of Classical civilization was just the implementation of God's instructions as set out in the Bible. Those wonderfully vague, contradictory, and often cruel instructions. When your holy book tells you all the different cases in which you must commit murder, the different ways in which you can practice slavery, and that a rape victim must marry their rapist, you obviously have a recipe for disaster, regardless of what other things might be in there.

When the religion shows that the only path to salvation is through one particular set of beliefs and practices, and that all who do not follow them will be tortured for eternity, and that you must go out and bring the word to others, then that breeds intolerance and desire for control. These kinds of behavior are an inevitable consequence of religion. It doesn't mean that all adherent will behave that way, but it does mean that many always will, and that cannot be changed. I used to think it could, but as I got older and became more familiar with this I realized that you can't just get everyone to be nice while keeping these religions intact.

Sorry if that was somewhat incoherent, I'm very tired right now :/

DoctorOfSpace, I'll answer your question when I'm actually awake smile





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Saturday, 01.09.2012, 00:44
 
Antza2Date: Saturday, 01.09.2012, 16:02 | Message # 63
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http://dolan.naurunappula.com/screen....254.jpg Enough said. biggrin




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DoctorOfSpaceDate: Saturday, 01.09.2012, 16:20 | Message # 64
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http://dolan.naurunappula.com/screen....254.jpg Enough said. biggrin


Wasn't there supposed to be FEMA camps and martial law by 2005?





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Antza2Date: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 10:10 | Message # 65
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Wasn't there supposed to be FEMA camps and martial law by 2005?

Hard to say, since i was 13 back then :P
Wasn't really into foreign politics at that age.





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Antza2Date: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 11:27 | Message # 66
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Correct. And a point of interest here, the fall of classical civilization was due primarily to Christianity. A one thousand year setback to civilization, courtesy of religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEP50dxfRAw&feature=g-vrec Kinda relevant.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 11:44 | Message # 67
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http://dolan.naurunappula.com/screen....254.jpg Enough said

I wouldn't go that far. It's unrealistic to directly compare pretty much anyone to Hitler. Very few people can be said to have attempted and done things that were similar to what he did.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
I hear this a lot from people and I don't understand why. Care to explain?

Well it basically boils down to wanting to conform to a certain image of the future, and fear of the unknown. There's no telling in what way AI could affect humanity and our civilization. It could be the greatest thing ever to happen, but it could also - directly or indirectly - lead to our demise or worse. Machines certainly have the potential for doing great good, but it would be naive to think that a good outcome is inevitable.

And my long-time fantasy vision of the future has people not being fundamentally much more dependent on technology than they are now. Technology will advance, but it will not take over our society to a much greater degree. I realize that this is unrealistic, but I have a natural desire to see the future conform to my wishes, as do we all. Mostly I feel this way because I have simply not thought about post-singularity type possibilities. I can image some that could be favorable as well, depending on how things go. Ultimately my timidity is derived from anxiety over not being able to predict the future in such a world.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
For a "singularity" you need a bit more than just super smart machines.

What else is needed?

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Well we don't have AI yet and humans already have the means, if they put their minds to it, to prevent the collapse of human society.

Yes, but if we did that then we wouldn't need the AI to do it, would we. And are enough humans really capable of putting their minds to it for that capability to mean anything?

Quote (Antza2)
Kinda relevant.

That last sentence? Wholly relevant.





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Antza2Date: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 11:57 | Message # 68
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I wouldn't go that far. It's unrealistic to directly compare pretty much anyone to Hitler. Very few people can be said to have attempted and done things that were similar to what he did.

True. I just found it funny.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Well it basically boils down to wanting to conform to a certain image of the future, and fear of the unknown. There's no telling in what way AI could affect humanity and our civilization. It could be the greatest thing ever to happen, but it could also - directly or indirectly - lead to our demise or worse. Machines certainly have the potential for doing great good, but it would be naive to think that a good outcome is inevitable.

If an AI is ever created, It could just go all Sky-net on us and start killing everything.

There is no way of predicting how it will react after gaining sentience.

For all we know, it could be entirely peaceful and help us develop, or see us as nothing more than animals and harvest us.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 12:23 | Message # 69
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For all we know, it could be entirely peaceful and help us develop, or see us as nothing more than animals and harvest us.

There are basically 4 options. Utopia, "Terminator", "The Matrix", and human civil war (progressives versus conservatives).

Utopia: Everything will be peaceful and prosperous and great.

Terminator: Machines try to exterminate humanity

The Matrix: Machines subjugate humanity

Civil War: Conservative anti-technologists (largely religious probably) will fight to eliminate influential high technology like AI, and progressive pro-technologists and possibly also machines are forced to fight for technology's survival and growth.





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Antza2Date: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 12:50 | Message # 70
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
The Matrix: Machines subjugate humanity

Civil War: Conservative anti-technologists (largely religious probably) will fight to eliminate influential high technology like AI, and progressive pro-technologists and possibly also machines are forced to fight for technology's survival and growth.

I find these two the most probable. Utopia is highly unlikely, since nothing usually works perfectly in the end.
Terminator on the other hand is not a good choice from the machines standpoint, since war costs resources and gives very little back. Its more beneficial to subjugate humans than destroy them.





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DoctorOfSpaceDate: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 13:01 | Message # 71
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And my long-time fantasy vision of the future has people not being fundamentally much more dependent on technology than they are now.


I like to think we can use the technology to work through those problems. I don't see it much as relying on the technology but more making it part of us thus making it no longer truly technology but part of our biology.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
What else is needed?


Said it in a previous post. A post singularity society would have overcome all the issues we currently face today. There would no longer be hunger, disease, death, and as a whole society would be greatly improved. Technology would also advance at such a fast rate that current humans could not adapt to such changes and so humans would need to change themselves to live in such a world.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Yes, but if we did that then we wouldn't need the AI to do it, would we. And are enough humans really capable of putting their minds to it for that capability to mean anything?


Not enough people are. The average person is heavily biased and thinks things like nationalism, political ideologies, and personal beliefs are important. Humanity needs to move beyond those things.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Civil War: Conservative anti-technologists (largely religious probably) will fight to eliminate influential high technology like AI, and progressive pro-technologists and possibly also machines are forced to fight for technology's survival and growth.


This is most likely what will happen int he next couple decades as the technology advances and becomes more prevalent in society.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Utopia: Everything will be peaceful and prosperous and great.


This will NEVER happen as a utopia is a stagnant society. There will always be needs to advance and change, but i guess you could say that by todays standards a post singularity society would be a Utopia. You can think of a post singularity society as a global society who integrates technology into themselves and their world.

In essence we become the machines and the machines become us, there will be no exclusive distinction between human and technology.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Terminator: Machines try to exterminate humanity

The Matrix: Machines subjugate humanity


Terminator? I don't think machines will destroy us, well not in the violent manner at least and nor will it really be a destruction.

The Matrix is a partially real possibility as we will inevitably create machines to run society but I think we will work with the machines on figuring out proper solutions that benefit both sides.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 13:02 | Message # 72
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since war costs resources and gives very little back

It could still ultimately be more efficient and less troublesome than keeping humans around, depending on the circumstances. If humans continue to exist then there is always a possibility that they could eventually pose a significant risk to the machines, and expending the resources to keep humans in check and doing what they're supposed to be doing could add up in the long term.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I don't see it much as relying on the technology but more making it part of us thus making it no longer truly technology but part of our biology.

That's what I meant by dependent in a fundamental way.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
This will NEVER happen as a utopia is a stagnant society.

I use the term utopia loosely here to describe a harmonious and prosperous arrangement, not one that is necessarily static in all its elements.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Sunday, 02.09.2012, 13:07
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 13:09 | Message # 73
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That's what I meant by dependent in a fundamental way.


Think of it differently then. You have natural technology already and you depend on it to function to societal norms. You have legs, you have feet, you have arms, hands, eyes, ears, a nose, a sense of touch, and means of tasting.

What is wrong with expanding upon these senses and incorporating them into our biology? Your life expectancy would increase, your quality of life would increase, and I can't see it being much of a detriment.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I use the term utopia loosely here to describe a perfect arrangement, not one that is necessarily static in all its elements.


I figured as much which is why i ended my post with

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
i guess you could say that by todays standards a post singularity society would be a Utopia.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 13:22 | Message # 74
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What is wrong with expanding upon these senses and incorporating them into our biology? Your life expectancy would increase, your quality of life would increase, and I can't see it being much of a detriment.

I didn't say it would be detrimental, nor did I mean to imply it. I just said that visions of the future that I have cultivated in my head in the past did not include them. I am not really against those things.





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DoctorOfSpaceDate: Sunday, 02.09.2012, 13:40 | Message # 75
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I have cultivated in my head in the past did not include them


Why is that? The technology already exists separate from us and its getting smaller, cheaper, and better. Prosthetic technology is also getting better, so all it will take is a prosthetic that incorporates those technologies and then the prosthetic would translate those new signals to what the brain can interpret.

There was an interesting study done on the projections of exponential growth that I found rather intriguing.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science....th.html






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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Education and the Future of Nations (The importance of education and its effect on world nations)
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