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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Education and the Future of Nations (The importance of education and its effect on world nations)
Education and the Future of Nations
SpaceEngineerDate: Thursday, 30.08.2012, 10:34 | Message # 46
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Destruction of the education system is going on in my country too. You may know that Soviet Union has free education: every school, college and University was free, and uses only budget funding. Every talanted student may pass the entrance exam to the University. But now, in modern Russia, Universities are rifed out and closed, the rest are going to be paid and very expensive (by our standards). The astronomy is excluded from school program! And this is in the country that launched the first man into space! The country without education has no future...

*





 
Antza2Date: Thursday, 30.08.2012, 10:58 | Message # 47
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Quote (SpaceEngineer)
You may know that Soviet Union has free education: every school, college and University was free

We still have that in Finland.

Quote (SpaceEngineer)
But now, in modern Russia, Universities are rifed out and closed, the rest are going to be paid and very expensive

I heard there was something like that going on. Sad. sad

Quote (SpaceEngineer)
The astronomy is excluded from school program!

WHAT! Why? It's the most interesting subject there is.

Quote (SpaceEngineer)
The country without education has no future...

True. Depressing, but true. sad





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HarbingerDawnDate: Thursday, 30.08.2012, 11:44 | Message # 48
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We still have that in Finland.

We don't have that in the United States. Students are going very deep into debt these days because they take out loans to pay for school, and then they can't repay them because there are not enough good paying jobs for university graduates.

Quote (SpaceEngineer)
The country without education has no future...

Very true. And I see no good future for the US unless many things change...





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Antza2Date: Friday, 31.08.2012, 11:11 | Message # 49
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwOU_2lXFFc&feature=g-vrec
Just saw this. Sad. Very, very sad. sad





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Edited by Antza2 - Friday, 31.08.2012, 11:17
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 12:15 | Message # 50
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwOU_2lXFFc&feature=g-vrec
Just saw this. Sad. Very, very sad.

These sort of teachings - taught at home by parents and in churches - are the number one threat to the future of education in the United States today. I know of far too many children who are raised with these kinds of fundamental religious beliefs and so reject everything that they're taught about the world without even considering it, and then grow up to try to change the education system and make it like something from the dark ages. It really worries me, sometimes even scares me, to look at the future of my country and its people, because I don't see a way out of this awful mess.

People are so quick to tell you what they believe, but they can never give you an acceptable answer as to why the believe it. No one even understands why they think what they do, and they don't even care. That is the biggest problem that society has.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Friday, 31.08.2012, 12:22
 
Antza2Date: Friday, 31.08.2012, 12:26 | Message # 51
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These sort of teachings - taught at home by parents and in churches - are the number one threat to the future of education in the United States today. I know of far too many children who are raised with these kinds of fundamental religious beliefs and so reject everything that they're taught about the world without even considering it, and then grow up to try to change the education system and make it like something from the dark ages. It really worries me, sometimes even scares me, to look at the future of my country and its people, because I don't see a way out of this awful mess.

People are so quick to tell you what they believe, but they can never give you an acceptable answer as to why the believe it. No one even understands why they think what they do, and they don't even care. That is the biggest problem that society has.

My advice: Abandon ship! Get out while you still can. biggrin

But seriously. If USA is going to degrade into something from 1400bc, many countries are going to follow. Probably not most of the European countries though, but you can never be sure.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
People are so quick to tell you what they believe, but they can never give you an acceptable answer as to why the believe it. No one even understands why they think what they do, and they don't even care. That is the biggest problem that society has.

Doesn't it bother people that they can't justify their beliefs?





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Edited by Antza2 - Friday, 31.08.2012, 12:27
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 12:36 | Message # 52
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Quote (Antza2)
But seriously. If USA is going to degrade into something from 1400bc, many countries are going to follow. Probably not most of the European countries though, but you can never be sure.


I don't think we will regress to older standards of living and intelligence. The push of technology can't be stopped, even with education failing there will always be educated individuals and companies.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
People are so quick to tell you what they believe, but they can never give you an acceptable answer as to why the believe it. No one even understands why they think what they do, and they don't even care. That is the biggest problem that society has.


I fully agree with this. I've tried to learn others opinions/beliefs/views and sometimes it makes you come to a new understanding, but the average person will block you out the moment you mention anything that is contrary to their view. People like to have a comfortable feeling about life and society, even if it is completely wrong.

Quote (Antza2)
Doesn't it bother people that they can't justify their beliefs?



Not at all because they do justify their belief with false suppositions. An example would be saying something along the lines of "this doesn't happen just by chance, life is too complex" and so on.

I think its more to what Douglas Adams once said


Its just how people make sense of things





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Friday, 31.08.2012, 12:40
 
Antza2Date: Friday, 31.08.2012, 12:56 | Message # 53
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I don't think we will regress to older standards of living and intelligence. The push of technology can't be stopped, even with education failing there will always be educated individuals and companies.

I'd disagree. There have been times in history, when massive amounts of knowledge and technology have been lost. The dark ages for example.
They even gave up currency and went back to trading only material goods.

This kind of regression would be very unlikely in our current state, with internet and such, but it's still possible.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Not at all because they do justify their belief with false suppositions. An example would be saying something along the lines of "this doesn't happen just by chance, life is too complex" and so on.

It sure would bother me.

A good example of failed logic:


Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
I think its more to what Douglas Adams once said

Douglas Adams must be the most awesome person ever. biggrin

Attachments: 6096745.jpg(58Kb)





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Edited by Antza2 - Friday, 31.08.2012, 13:03
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 13:29 | Message # 54
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There have been times in history, when massive amounts of knowledge and technology have been lost. The dark ages for example.


I didn't say it was impossible.

Quote (Antza2)
This kind of regression would be very unlikely in our current state, with internet and such, but it's still possible.


Exactly what I meant. We are at a point now in technological development where even if education becomes substandard there are just enough educated people to keep the tech push going. By that I mean we will have artificial intelligence before any sort of major educational collapse happens, by that time the control of nations and society can be given to machines.

Quote (Antza2)
It sure would bother me.


As it should

Quote (Antza2)
Douglas Adams must be the most awesome person ever


Sadly he died





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HarbingerDawnDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 13:41 | Message # 55
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My advice: Abandon ship! Get out while you still can.

Recently I have started to seriously consider that. I may decide to move to another country. It depending partially on what happens here in the next several months.

Quote (Antza2)
Doesn't it bother people that they can't justify their beliefs?

No, it doesn't bother them at all. They feel justified in believing something just for its own sake. They don't care that they don't have a reason, they don't feel that they need one. Just yesterday, I was asking my mom why she hate President Obama so much, and she says that he's a communist and wants to be a dictator. Now, Fidel Castro is not someone I would compare Barack Obama to, so I asked her why she thinks this, and where she go this information. And she just obfuscates and/or tells me that she just doesn't feel like talking about politics, or she attacks me and accuses me of various things.

This is typical behavior for people who are of that mindset, that they don't have to explain themselves, that they are justified in any belief, and that the truth is irrelevant, or is a matter of opinion.

Quote (Antza2)
Probably not most of the European countries though, but you can never be sure.

I had written something about the EU here that turned into a rant on world government, so I just removed the whole thing biggrin

Quote (Antza2)
I'd disagree. There have been times in history, when massive amounts of knowledge and technology have been lost. The dark ages for example.

Correct. And a point of interest here, the fall of classical civilization was due primarily to Christianity. A one thousand year setback to civilization, courtesy of religion.



Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
there are just enough educated people to keep the tech push going. By that I mean we will have artificial intelligence before any sort of major educational collapse happens, by that time the control of nations and society can be given to machines.

But that can change. The state of a society can change greatly with the generations. And I disagree about the AI. I don't think it will be as soon as you think before we encounter singularity (I'm pretty sure we've already beat this horse to death though smile ).

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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Friday, 31.08.2012, 13:44
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 13:49 | Message # 56
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The state of a society can change greatly with the generations. And I disagree about the AI. I don't think it will be as soon as you think before we encounter singularity


It could change true there are a lot of unknowns. As for singularity, you don't need a technological singularity to have artificial intelligence or to hand control of nations and society to machines. AI will happen within 15 years, it probably won't be super intelligent to begin with but it will be smart enough to be a useful asset in the progression of society. At that point the AI can improve itself and a singularity is inevitable.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I'm pretty sure we've already beat this horse to death though


Never cool





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HarbingerDawnDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 13:53 | Message # 57
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As for singularity, you don't need a technological singularity to have artificial intelligence or to hand control of nations and society to machines.

I can't see an AI capable enough to overcome the challenges society faces existing before singularity, because if something like that existed then we would be in a singularity state by default since it would be capable of more than we can fathom and there's no guarantee about what it would do.





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DoctorOfSpaceDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 14:07 | Message # 58
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I can't see an AI capable enough to overcome the challenges society faces existing before singularity, because if something like that existed then we would be in a singularity state by default since it would be capable of more than we can fathom and there's no guarantee about what it would do.


You seem to have a misunderstanding as to what the technological singularity is supposed to be. It isn't about having AI or unfathomable intelligences. The singularity is the point when technology advances faster than humanly comprehensible, where computer power and intelligence would increase on a daily/hourly/minute basis. That is the singularity, AI is only one contributing factor.

However you are correct about one thing. Once the intelligence is equal to our own or greater, there is no knowing what it will do. The bad news is that day is coming in less than 2 decades, government institutions are already preparing for it and in some cases developing it. DARPA has plans for intelligent self running machines by 2025 and are currently developing the bodies and mechanics for them in preparation of when computing power hits the point when it can be put in these devices.

As far as I'm concerned the only hope for society as a whole is through technology.





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Friday, 31.08.2012, 14:08
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 14:41 | Message # 59
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My understanding was that it was the point at which the future course of events cannot be reliably estimated due to the technological capability we would achieve, which means that any technology possessing certain capabilities would automatically fall into the category of post-singularity tech. Such as anything that was capable of affecting widespread, profound, and unpredictable change without any human input. Which any AI capable of preventing the collapse of human society would have to be capable of. That was my line of thinking.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
However you are correct about one thing. Once the intelligence is equal to our own or greater, there is no knowing what it will do. The bad news is that day is coming in less than 2 decades, government institutions are already preparing for it and in some cases developing it. DARPA has plans for intelligent self running machines by 2025 and are currently developing the bodies and mechanics for them in preparation of when computing power hits the point when it can be put in these devices.

As far as I'm concerned the only hope for society as a whole is through technology.

We'll see what happens. I don't think that we'll be facing that situation within the next half-century, but I freely admit that I have no good reason for holding that opinion, and I am biased towards not wanting it to occur.





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DoctorOfSpaceDate: Friday, 31.08.2012, 14:49 | Message # 60
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I am biased towards not wanting it to occur.


I hear this a lot from people and I don't understand why. Care to explain?

I don't see how machines taking over society could really go sour, especially when other fields of technology are advancing just as fast.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
which means that any technology possessing certain capabilities would automatically fall into the category of post-singularity tech.


Just about yes but not entirely. For a "singularity" you need a bit more than just super smart machines.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Which any AI capable of preventing the collapse of human society would have to be capable of.


Well we don't have AI yet and humans already have the means, if they put their minds to it, to prevent the collapse of human society.





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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Education and the Future of Nations (The importance of education and its effect on world nations)
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