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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Education and the Future of Nations (The importance of education and its effect on world nations)
Education and the Future of Nations
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 15:32 | Message # 241
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Quote (midtskogen)
it doesn't work out as intended.

(I'm quoting midtskogen, but I'm addressing werdnaforever in this post)

That is because it completely ignores human nature to assume that everyone will be content being fundamentally equal. You will always have people who crave power, and you will always have people who will feel unmotivated to do more with themselves unless they are getting more for it. In other words, it ignores the fact that we are still animals, primate mammals evolved from a reptilian ancestry, which is reflected in our brains and our instincts. I can imagine perfect societies, but none of them can work with present-day humanity, only with a subset of it. Your best bet in the near-to-mid future for establishing a perfect society is to start a colony. And even that probably won't be able to work.





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TimDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 15:51 | Message # 242
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Well, I think the commies made some major mistakes:

1. Ignoring nearly all individualism (everybody the same car, the same food, etc...) This is discussable though.

2. Once you have the power over all national products, many won't be able to let go of it in the next elections and will use it to remain in power.

3. Quality of all products, technologies and scientific studies go down as there is no healthy competitor to the the state.

4. People lose interest in taking various studies for specific jobs, they are less aware of the world and don't have a clue what is going on on the other side of the country.
 
midtskogenDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 16:11 | Message # 243
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Quote (werdnaforever)
People resort to these excuses, always falling back on horrible examples from our history which weren't run properly, saying that it's not possible to have a non monetary society.

Then why not take it a step further, the perfect society must be anarchy, and nobody will force money on you either. It's absolutely true, apart from that it doesn't work either.

I think you have it upside down. Taking away money doesn't give you the ideal society, but in an ideal society you don't need money.





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werdnaforeverDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 16:29 | Message # 244
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
That is because it completely ignores human nature to assume that everyone will be content being fundamentally equal. You will always have people who crave power, and you will always have people who will feel unmotivated to do more with themselves unless they are getting more for it. In other words, it ignores the fact that we are still animals, primate mammals evolved from a reptilian ancestry, which is reflected in our brains and our instincts. I can imagine perfect societies, but none of them can work with present-day humanity, only with a subset of it. Your best bet in the near-to-mid future for establishing a perfect society is to start a colony. And even that probably won't be able to work.


"Human nature" doesn't exist! People act the way they do because of the society they were raised in. People who crave power or who are unmotivated to work in a generous manner towards their society exist because the system we live in encourages the accumulation of wealth and private property, and discourages things like sharing and generosity.

It is an excuse; a reason why things cannot change and will only work the way they are today. It's no better than "this concept will never work since no one's ever done it properly".

Never have I advocated for a "perfect" society, just a better one.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
In other words, it ignores the fact that we are still animals, primate mammals evolved from a reptilian ancestry, which is reflected in our brains and our instincts.

You have to teach people how to behave properly for them to behave properly. This is just another excuse for why things can't be better than they are.

Quote (Tim)
Well, I think the commies made some major mistakes:

1. Ignoring nearly all individualism (everybody the same car, the same food, etc...) This is discussable though.

2. Once you have the power over all national products, many won't be able to let go of it in the next elections and will use it to remain in power.

3. Quality of all products, technologies and scientific studies go down as there is no healthy competitor to the the state.

4. People lose interest in taking various studies for specific jobs, they are less aware of the world and don't have a clue what is going on on the other side of the country.

1. What's important is the freedom to make choices.
2. I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
3. True. In a global RBE, there's no such thing as a competitor to the state since there's no state.
4. Indeed. That problem is (thankfully!) easy to avoid thanks to today's advanced communications technologies. One of the most important things every society must do is bring out the best in everyone, and this means allowing people to be educated properly, and to give them a chance to discover and develop their talents through a proper education system. People need to find their proper place in society based on their talents so they can do their jobs better and live happy lives.

EDIT:
Quote (midtskogen)
Then why not take it a step further, the perfect society must be anarchy, and nobody will force money on you either. It's absolutely true, apart from that it doesn't work either.

I think you have it upside down. Taking away money doesn't give you the ideal society, but in an ideal society you don't need money.


That's the point. I'm not suggesting that you take money away from our current society. I'm saying that money is one of the reasons why our society has problems. If you have a society that can properly manage it's resources, you can give everyone a high standard of living and won't need money. Today, we rely on money as if it was the only way to make a society. Let's consider how unequal our world is, and how bad we are at distributing resources.


Edited by werdnaforever - Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 16:37
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 16:48 | Message # 245
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Quote (werdnaforever)
"Human nature" doesn't exist!

This might just be the most ignorant and naive thing I've ever heard anyone say. I don't mean that as an insult, just as a fact.

Regardless of society, you will still have certain things that people feel inclined towards. People have instincts, people are programmed a certain way by their genes and brain structure. I am not saying that we can't overcome these things, but I am saying that they must be taken into account and that some aspects of our nature are nigh-impossible to overcome and cannot be ignored.

For example, try to eliminate the human sex drive without any kind of drugs or gene alterations, and tell me how that goes.

Quote (werdnaforever)
You have to teach people how to behave properly for them to behave properly.

And surely if someone was taught to not do something then they'll never do it, right? /sarcasm People will do certain things regardless of what they were told because they just can't help themselves, or if they do hold themselves back against their nature due to conditioning it can cause a lot of stress and even long-term psychological trauma (please do not say that this isn't true, I know more than enough walking, breathing examples, myself included).

I'm not saying that people should just be allowed to do whatever they feel inclined towards. I'm just saying that you can't ignore these things when planning a better society.

Quote (werdnaforever)
This is just another excuse for why things can't be better than they are.

No it isn't. I am the first person to say that things can and should be better than they are. But there are serious limits to how much better it can be without addressing issues of human nature, and the kind of world that I ultimately want cannot exist without changing humanity itself in some fundamental ways.





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werdnaforeverDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 17:11 | Message # 246
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
This might just be the most ignorant and naive thing I've ever heard anyone say. I don't mean that as an insult, just as a fact.

Regardless of society, you will still have certain things that people feel inclined towards. People have instincts, people are programmed a certain way by their genes and brain structure. I am not saying that we can't overcome these things, but I am saying that they must be taken into account and that some aspects of our nature are nigh-impossible to overcome and cannot be ignored.

For example, try to eliminate the human sex drive without any kind of drugs or gene alterations, and tell me how that goes.

Quote (werdnaforever)
These are simply biological traits passed down from generation to generation. They are nature, and they are human, but when people talk about "human nature", they are talking about psychological traits, which are learned through society (we are taught to think and act a certain way). Anything learned isn't universal.

EDIT: To reiterate that, genetics only accounts for physical traits, not mental traits. Saying that something is human nature tends to be an excuse for why things should be the way they are now, rather than change. I'm sure we all have used this excuse before at least once.

The human sex drive is mental, sure, but it's driven by physical reactions, and hormones. How well we are able to deal with things like that is learned behavior. People can be taught to be civil and respectful, and to have proper self control.

Something like greed isn't natural, but people will say "well, it's just human nature, people will always want more and more, and will always be greedy." Greed is something you learn, not something built into your biology. People will always have biological traits which have an effect on how they act and think. I think an important distinction is whether something is biological, or mentally learned. The former is unavoidable, the latter can be taught to properly deal with the former.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
And surely if someone was taught to not do something then they'll never do it, right? /sarcasm People will do certain things regardless of what they were told because they just can't help themselves, or if they do hold themselves back against their nature due to conditioning it can cause a lot of stress and even long-term psychological trauma (please do not say that this isn't true, I know more than enough walking, breathing examples, myself included).

I'm not saying that people should just be allowed to do whatever they feel inclined towards. I'm just saying that you can't ignore these things when planning a better society.

People make mistakes. People do stupid things. I'm not advocating for a perfect society where people behave flawlessly. People are imperfect, and so will any society we create. Some kind of regulation will always be appropriate.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
No it isn't.

It is used as an excuse- people argue that we will never be able to eliminate problems with our society because of our natural inclinations.
Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I am the first person to say that things can and should be better than they are.

You are?
Quote (HarbingerDawn)
and the kind of world that I ultimately want cannot exist

The kind of world you want may not be possible without altering human biology. The kind I want is one that educates people, teaches them civilized values involving respect, generosity, modesty, etc. so they can behave better and feel happy as a result.

EDIT: Maybe we should try to avoid a "quote war" from here on. smile


Edited by werdnaforever - Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 17:23
 
midtskogenDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 18:15 | Message # 247
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Quote (werdnaforever)
If you have a society that can properly manage it's resources, you can give everyone a high standard of living and won't need money.

Well, philosophers have pondered that precisely since antiquity and come up with suggestions. I think we need to be realistic. If countless people have tried for three thousand years to turn lead into gold, I believe it's better to begin realising that there are obstacles that can't be overcome rather to give it yet another try. I'm not saying that there can't be improvements, but those should be incremental and not parts of a great plan, nor will revolutions or "thinking out of the box" work well either.

I can't help being reminded of agent Smith in The Matrix who had made an important observation when he told that the first version of the Matrix was designed as a utopia, but people wouldn't accept it and entire crops were lost. "Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned." Brilliant.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 18:18 | Message # 248
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Quote (werdnaforever)
Something like greed isn't natural

Yes it is. Greed isn't a learned behavior, so where does it come from if not from natural inclination?

Quote (werdnaforever)
You are?

Well not literally tongue I mean that I recognize that society needs a lot of improvement and I really want to see that improvement happen.

Quote (werdnaforever)
The kind of world you want may not be possible without altering human biology. The kind I want is one that educates people, teaches them civilized values involving respect, generosity, modesty, etc. so they can behave better and feel happy as a result.

And that world would still have room for improvement which would require fundamental changes to humans.

Quote (werdnaforever)
It is used as an excuse- people argue that we will never be able to eliminate problems with our society because of our natural inclinations.

But that is not being argued here, which is what I meant. To object when someone mentions "human nature", heedless of context or intent, is foolish.

Quote (werdnaforever)
Maybe we should try to avoid a "quote war" from here on.

No! Quotes are invaluable. One time someone tried to discuss something on this forum without quoting the points he was responding to. It didn't go well.

Quote (werdnaforever)
People can be taught to be civil and respectful, and to have proper self control.

Yes, but under some circumstances it can also lead to a lot of negative effects to a person's health and wellbeing. So clearly that is insufficient.

Quote (werdnaforever)
genetics only accounts for physical traits, not mental traits

Not true at all. I don't have the time to go through all the ways in which this is incorrect, but it most certainly is.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 18:20
 
werdnaforeverDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 18:55 | Message # 249
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Yes it is. Greed isn't a learned behavior, so where does it come from if not from natural inclination?

If you are raised by selfless people, you will not be greedy. In a culture where everyone shares everything, you wouldn't be greedy. Greed, or greedy behavior, is something you learn from your society.
Quote (HarbingerDawn)
And that world would still have room for improvement which would require fundamental changes to humans.

No, it wouldn't. I think you're the one being cynical now.
Quote (HarbingerDawn)
One time

Only once? But I see your point.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Yes, but under some circumstances it can also lead to a lot of negative effects to a person's health and wellbeing. So clearly that is insufficient.

Proper self control doesn't mean bottle up all your emotions. Besides, we'll always have psychologists, and in a non-monetary society this kind of care can be more accessible.

Honesty is important, and it should be a respected value. We need to start instilling better values in our children.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Not true at all. I don't have the time to go through all the ways in which this is incorrect, but it most certainly is.

How about some of them?
Okay, your right that some behaviors are natural, but those are the ones related to biological functions. We learn so much from our society: It's our values, the way we act, how much we care about others, how generous we are, how modest we are, what we care about, what makes more or less sense to us, how we consciously solve problems. We are born into a set of conditions, and have to adapt to those conditions, and because of this we become who we are.
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 19:09 | Message # 250
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Quote (werdnaforever)
Proper self control doesn't mean bottle up all your emotions. Besides, we'll always have psychologists, and in a non-monetary society this kind of care can be more accessible.

You are ignoring certain kinds of psychological and neurological problems that might be self defeating (i.e., someone's problems prevent them from seeking the care they need to treat them).

Quote (werdnaforever)
No, it wouldn't.

You said earlier that your society would not be perfect, and I can see much room for improvement in your society, therefore you are incorrect.

Quote (werdnaforever)
Only once?

As far as I know it only happened once. So yes.

Quote (werdnaforever)
I think you're the one being cynical now.

No. There are simply things that I see as problems that need addressing that would be left unaddressed when your society was complete. That is not cynicism, that is wanting to continue the process of making things better.





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Antza2Date: Thursday, 31.01.2013, 15:28 | Message # 251
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Nice videos on Finnish education.







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HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 20.02.2013, 03:58 | Message # 252
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We get our "news" and "information" from people like this... no wonder many Americans are so ignorant wacko






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WatsisnameDate: Wednesday, 20.02.2013, 06:14 | Message # 253
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It's a real shame critical thinking is not a skill selected for in news anchors.




 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 20.02.2013, 06:58 | Message # 254
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It's a real shame critical thinking is not a skill selected for in news anchors.

Or any kind of thinking.





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TimDate: Wednesday, 20.02.2013, 12:58 | Message # 255
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I usually like Bill Nye, but he seems so sensational here...

Also; "Is this the result of global warming?"

Seriously? SERIOUSLY???
 
Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Education and the Future of Nations (The importance of education and its effect on world nations)
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