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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Education and the Future of Nations (The importance of education and its effect on world nations)
Education and the Future of Nations
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 07:17 | Message # 226
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I see a problem with humanity not having a future unless it really really can't ever fix itself.


If humans are driven for fighting/war and inevitably self destruction I would rather our machines destroy us than anything else. That way in some sense we still survive, otherwise nothing would be left and I find that to be the worst fate of all.

Starts around 5 minutes in


Bit more in the next part after as well


Hugo de Garis has a very interesting perspective on where technology may be going. I don't fully agree with him but I do think he has an interesting and possible point of view.





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 08:23
 
Antza2Date: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 08:51 | Message # 227
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If I had to jump ship from the US without having to learn a new language, where would I go? Doesn't Canada have the same old corruption like the US? Or Sweeden? Or Norway? Or Finland?
 
Well here education is free, we have public healthcare and people speak English pretty well.





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midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 10:53 | Message # 228
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Living in the US, I'm not sure I even want to vote since there aren't any good choices. It's the lesser of two evils. Besides, politicians aren't really the ones who bring about change. After all, they're often paid to keep things the same.

While we have a wide selection of parties with real chances to represent here, it's still a matter of lesser evils. I'm not impressed with the politicians. One thing is that most of them have been into politics since they were teens and have little experience in the real world. Then they're not very bright, but that's really a prerequisite for becoming a politician. Think of it, doing politics is about trying to do something positive for society, but you don't get any thanks back, just abuse. If you're smart, don't do politics. I don't like politicians, but I'm glad they volunteered. Better that someone does the job poorly than nobody doing it.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 14:17 | Message # 229
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It's the lesser of two evils.

...you do realize that there are usually more than two names on the ballot? You can vote outside the major parties, that's what I tend to do. When you do that you suddenly find that there are actually some decent candidates out there.

Quote (werdnaforever)
Besides, politicians aren't really the ones who bring about change. After all, they're often paid to keep things the same.

It depends on the politician. This tends to be the case today, yes, but it is not necessarily true, and good politicians who actually do good things for society can exist.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
If

That is the key word which you seem to be glossing over, I'm glad you mentioned it so I can put it in big shiny (read "dull blue") quotes.

Quote (midtskogen)
I'm glad they volunteered.

I don't know if it's like this in every country, but in most places the politicians are some of the richest and most powerful people in their respective countries. Not much of a volunteer position.





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werdnaforeverDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 14:38 | Message # 230
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...you do realize that there are usually more than two names on the ballot? You can vote outside the major parties, that's what I tend to do. When you do that you suddenly find that there are actually some decent candidates out there.

These guys, unfortunately, have no chance since such a large part of the country votes for one of two parties.
Quote (HarbingerDawn)
It depends on the politician. This tends to be the case today, yes, but it is not necessarily true, and good politicians who actually do good things for society can exist.

Yes, they do exist, but they are few and far between.
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 14:47 | Message # 231
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These guys, unfortunately, have no chance since such a large part of the country votes for one of two parties.

And if everybody who used this excuse for not voting Third Party would vote Third Party, we would have a Third Party candidate in office. The biggest way that the Two Party system stays in power is by making you think that it can't or shouldn't change. Once you realize that that's not the case, then their position is considerably weakened.





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JokermanDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 17:08 | Message # 232
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If I may and taking a few key words or phrases from the last many pages .....

"Corruption". There is no avoiding it but the awareness of and the decision to manage/control/remove corruption if executed properly, can keep a sense of honestly about what we choose to do as a species.

"Jumping ship". The posts suggest to me me a sense of frustration. I recognise this. I jumped. Today's world is not that of our grandparents. It's smaller, closer knit and with less and less space to get lost in. With a growing population, more waste and less resources, the big problems are big and the small problems are growing. But the problems are essentially the same when boiled down to their core. Security, food, comfort and a sense of belonging.

We are in the middle of yet another tech revolution and still arrogant enough to believe we can keep up this time when in fact we're being left struggling in it's dust a little just like the last time. Life is so good now in the 1st world that it's bringing out an ugly human characteristics .... complacency. I mean, a smart phone today can be bought for much less than $500 .... that is ridiculous [I look forward to your replies!!! LOL]

The realities of the instant answers from, perhaps not quite everyone's favourite search engine, has yet to show it's hand to the generation learning from it today and the one following it. Education itself is being challenged to not only 'educate' but to adopt new methods. Search engine education is a reality but education itself struggles with that idea.

I hold optimistic for the longer-term of eduction and Nations as I trust that far too slowly but nevertheless surely, they will adapt to new realities. Both will have to deal with a world which has a lot more 'getting smaller' to achieve and the realities for Nations especially are far reaching.

Oh and I got to say, America or any other Nation is not getting any more dumb folks! [to reference indirectly earlier posts]. Perhaps focus on Math and Sciences may indeed have softened. Reality TV and singing talent shows perhaps has taken hold amongst us for the present. But human nature is to learn from the mistake and all this is merely that learning process in progress. My point is, we need to learn from it!

The above comments are more long-winded than intended and serve only as my opinion and are in response to the entire thread.
 
werdnaforeverDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 20:30 | Message # 233
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But human nature

Human nature does not exist. The way people act is how their society teaches them.

Learning from mistakes is a natural kind of learning regardless of what society you are from.

Quote (Jokerman)
I hold optimistic for the longer-term of eduction and Nations as I trust that far too slowly but nevertheless surely, they will adapt to new realities. Both will have to deal with a world which has a lot more 'getting smaller' to achieve and the realities for Nations especially are far reaching.

How well our system works in the future is the direct result of how much we try to improve it.

Quote (Jokerman)
I mean, a smart phone today can be bought for much less than $500 .... that is ridiculous [I look forward to your replies!!! LOL]

The only ridiculous thing is that we are still using money to pay for things. You shouldn't have to be blocked from using a utility like a smartphone because you can't afford it.
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 21:18 | Message # 234
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Human nature does not exist.

The way we learn and the way we respond are not just environmental, we also have genetic dispositions towards our actions/reactions. If one person has a genetic difference in them where their body produces more testosterone then they may be more aggressive and if someone has a body that produces less they may tend to be more docile. That IS human nature and there is nothing you can do about that, at least for now.

Quote (werdnaforever)
The only ridiculous thing is that we are still using money to pay for things.


Not really, the Venus Project could not be done right now, maybe later this century or next century but not now.

Quote (werdnaforever)
You shouldn't have to be blocked from using a utility like a smartphone because you can't afford it.


Yes you should have to pay. Just as you have to work for your food and your services everyone else does. There are no machines currently capable of doing all those things and society is not structured around people working to give you a smart phone, internet, electricity, housing, food, clothing, and everything else for free.

You seem to have this misconception that things are just made by machines and then sold to you the consumer and money is just for greedy people and businesses who want power. That is not the case at all and won't be for at least another 15+ years. People take those factory jobs so they too can get the same things you want, they have families to feed, bills to pay. These are the things that keep our current society going and for now thats how things have to be.

These people work in slave like conditions to make electronics


So the company can sell the items to you at a mark up so your money keeps that business afloat, while keeping all the other services used to make that phone running. When you pay for a cellphone like an iphone you pay these factory workers, you pay the company, you pay the electricity used to make the phone, you pay for the mining, the materials, the cell towers, ISPs, and everything used to make such things possible.

You do not deserve to have such an item for free because it isn't free to make.

An alternative perspective on the Venus Project/Resource based economies
http://mises.org/daily/4636





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 21:32
 
werdnaforeverDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 22:32 | Message # 235
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These people work in slave like conditions to make electronics

We shouldn't have people making them. These people should have better jobs and a better quality of life. The factory should be automated, with technicians here and there to manage things. The electricity should be produced from a wind farm, or a hydroelectric dam, or some other renewable energy source.

I don't think it's acceptable for these people to be working in those conditions, nor do I accept a system where not just me, but where they cannot have access to the very kind of device they are working to manufacture because they don't have enough money to purchase it.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Yes you should have to pay. Just as you have to work for your food and your services everyone else does. There are no machines currently capable of doing all those things and society is not structured around people working to give you a smart phone, internet, electricity, housing, food, clothing, and everything else for free.

This is the problem! Our society makes us work for those things. What should be happening is our society working for us! What our civilization accepts as a proper standard of living for the majority of it's citizens is absolutely terrible despite whether it could easily be improved.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
An alternative perspective on the Venus Project/Resource based economies
http://mises.org/daily/4636

I think he's sort of missing the point. I'm not doubting his knowledge of (Austrian) economics, but I think he fails to understand the RBE. It's not supposed to be a utopia, it's supposed to be constantly improving. Also, the idea is that if we efficiently manage earths resources, we'll have more than enough for everyone to have a high standard of living- this means having a surplus of resources. We need an effective management system, which is possible.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
The way we learn and the way we respond are not just environmental, we also have genetic dispositions towards our actions/reactions. If one person has a genetic difference in them where their body produces more testosterone then they may be more aggressive and if someone has a body that produces less they may tend to be more docile. That IS human nature and there is nothing you can do about that, at least for now.

These are simply biological traits passed down from generation to generation. They are nature, and they are human, but when people talk about "human nature", they are talking about psychological traits, which are learned through society (we are taught to think and act a certain way). Anything learned isn't universal.

EDIT: To reiterate that, genetics only accounts for physical traits, not mental traits. Saying that something is human nature tends to be an excuse for why things should be the way they are now, rather than change. I'm sure we all have used this excuse before at least once.


Edited by werdnaforever - Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 22:38
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 22:47 | Message # 236
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Quote (werdnaforever)
The factory should be automated

Sounds good but...

Quote (werdnaforever)
with technicians here and there to manage things.


What if no one wants to manage the factories because they'd rather be out with their families or pursuing their dreams? How do you propose that issue be solved, in today's world if we switched to a Resource Based economy?

Quote (werdnaforever)
I don't think it's acceptable for these people to be working in those conditions


Then try and do something to change it. You probably won't change it because cheap labor fuels our society and anything you do would be negated by the natural progression of technology anyways as machines will one day be able to do these repetitive jobs.

Quote (werdnaforever)
nor do I accept a system where not just me, but where they cannot have access to the very kind of device they are working to manufacture because they don't have enough money to purchase it.


Just wait a few years? The price on such things will inevitably drop and you will be able to afford things.

Quote (werdnaforever)
Our society makes us work for those things.


Because the machines are not sophisticated enough to do such things and people have to actually work to make the things we want/need.

Quote (werdnaforever)
What should be happening is our society working for us

It works for you as long as you work for it. Its a 2 way street kind of deal, you do a job that supplies a service, you get money, you put that money towards things you want and need which funds others to do the same.





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 22:47
 
werdnaforeverDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 23:12 | Message # 237
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What if no one wants to manage the factories because they'd rather be out with their families or pursuing their dreams? How do you propose that issue be solved, in today's world if we switched to a Resource Based economy?

Heck, we may not even need technicians to manage it. My point is that people will still be involved with managing our society, but it will be much less than currently required. Someone who loves robots/factories/automation would be happy to volunteer some of their time to make sure the factory is running smoothly. I'm not saying people need to work there 24/7.
Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Then try and do something to change it. You probably won't change it because cheap labor fuels our society and anything you do would be negated by the natural progression of technology anyways as machines will one day be able to do these repetitive jobs.

In a RBE, automation is very important. In our society, it displaces people. We have so many people working in jobs which should be eliminated. The unfortunate reality is that this is the negative part of the transition- the displacement of those poor souls who labor for a living. Ideally, we could try to help those people with a decent adult education program for those who didn't have the benefit of a good education earlier in life (once more we all see how important educational systems are, hence the thread title smile ). It's never too late to start.
Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Because the machines are not sophisticated enough to do such things and people have to actually work to make the things we want/need.

They will be if/when we put effort into it. Of course, a 100% automated/self-maintaining smartphone factory is entirely plausible- it's not like we're talking about nuclear fusion or anti-gravity skateboards.
Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
It works for you as long as you work for it. Its a 2 way street kind of deal, you do a job that supplies a service, you get money, you put that money towards things you want and need which funds others to do the same.

Take money out of the equation, and you get: you do a job that supplies a service to others, and others do jobs that supply you a service. That sounds much better to me- people helping each other, each in their own way with their own talents.

EDIT:
Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Just wait a few years? The price on such things will inevitably drop and you will be able to afford things

Yeah, but that was the case a decade ago. That's like me buying a 2008 high end PC to do the kind of stuff I do in 2012 on a high end PC. This isn't exactly relevant to smartphones being affordable to factory workers, but computers, for many, like me, are a tool which makes use of human creativity and ingenuity. Because such things are so vast- for which we should be proud- computers, IMHO, will always be trying to catch up until they start building artificial brains, which won't be for a while, so there's plenty of time for this to remain as wonderful and poetic as I'm trying to make it sound. Every extra bit of speed a computer can provide me will give me that much more to utilize.[/insightsoncomputersandcreativity]


Edited by werdnaforever - Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 23:26
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 29.01.2013, 23:23 | Message # 238
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Quote (werdnaforever)
They will be if/when we put effort into it.


The effort to develop artificial intelligence and advanced machines has been around for quite sometime and has only sped up.

Quote (werdnaforever)
Of course, a 100% automated/self-maintaining smartphone factory is entirely plausible- it's not like we're talking about nuclear fusion or anti-gravity skateboards.


Plausible yes, possible right now no. The computing power in a single unit is not available nor is it or will it be commercially viable for at least another 10 to 15 years.

Quote (werdnaforever)
Heck, we may not even need technicians to manage it. My point is that people will still be involved with managing our society, but it will be much less than currently required. Someone who loves robots/factories/automation would be happy to volunteer some of their time to make sure the factory is running smoothly. I'm not saying people need to work there 24/7.


Thats a big "if".

Quote (werdnaforever)
In our society, it displaces people.

As it should. Inevitably things will have to change.

Quote (werdnaforever)

Take money out of the equation, and you get: you do a job that supplies a service to others, and others do jobs that supply you a service. That sounds much better to me- people helping each other, each in their own way with their own talents.




Related to money and has mentions of things I am far too tired and too lazy to type out. Mainly the bits about barter and trade however it is also a very nice short film.





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 15:28
 
midtskogenDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 07:07 | Message # 239
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Quote (werdnaforever)
Take money out of the equation, and you get: you do a job that supplies a service to others, and others do jobs that supply you a service. That sounds much better to me- people helping each other, each in their own way with their own talents.

That's a great idea. It's been tried several times, and it's called communism, and unfortunately, as it sometimes is with great ideas, it doesn't work out as intended.





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werdnaforeverDate: Wednesday, 30.01.2013, 15:02 | Message # 240
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That's a great idea. It's been tried several times, and it's called communism, and unfortunately, as it sometimes is with great ideas, it doesn't work out as intended.

It is a great idea. A wonderful idea. It sounds too good to be true, doesn't it?

Communism has been tried before. It's never worked as intended. People were still using money.

The "it's just communism, and it never worked (since everyone failed to do it properly)" is an excuse which has outstayed it's welcome.

People resort to these excuses, always falling back on horrible examples from our history which weren't run properly, saying that it's not possible to have a non monetary society. "Look at this evil person from that state that failed to work out properly! Look how many people died because of him! This means that the concept is flawed!" It's sad, but money has become so engrained into our culture that people can't seem to imagine a world without it. We all need to start thinking outside the box.
 
Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Education and the Future of Nations (The importance of education and its effect on world nations)
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