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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » The Future of Humanity & Intelligent life in the universe
The Future of Humanity & Intelligent life in the universe
MosfetDate: Monday, 09.05.2016, 09:01 | Message # 271
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Please excuse my intrusion, Just one of international readers who's not informed about facts you're debating right now. Despite the fact that the discussion seems to have gained some Kelvin in last posts, is interesting.
In what terms "The Future of Humanity" is closely linked to Elon Musk businesses? I missed the point.





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AerospacefagDate: Monday, 09.05.2016, 09:01 | Message # 272
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Quote HarbingerDawn ()
I quoted you the definition directly from the dictionary, and you said it wasn't accurate. I think YOU'RE the one who's not good at reading dictionaries.


It seems I need you to have a little lesson here.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/propaganda
Quote
The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

Nothing about manipulation insofar.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda
Quote
ideas or statements that are often false or exaggerated and that are spread in order to help a cause, a political leader, a government, etc.

Mind you, often does not mean always.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/propaganda
Quote
information which is false or which emphasizes just one part of a situation, used by a government or political group to make people agree with them:


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/propaganda
This one gives as several (if you look at the tabs above).
Quote

(British) information, ideas, opinions, or images, often only giving one part of an argument, that are broadcast, published, or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions:

(American) information or ideas that are spread by an organized group or government to influence people’s opinions, esp. by not giving all the facts or by secretly emphasizing only one way of looking at the facts

(Business) information, ideas, opinions, or images that give one part of an argument, which are broadcast, published, etc. in order to influence people's opinions:


Now that's pretty complete picture. The fun part is an application of words here. Don't you think there's a big difference between false and incomplete information? In giving false information, you can obviously accuse people for their wrong statements. With incomplete information, people will refuse to accept arguments will even go as far as ignore direct evidence of that lack of information.

Quote HarbingerDawn ()
Um... where is the ridiculous statement made by SpaceX there?

Yes, stating that you are going to making space suits "like in the movies" and then selling it as an advantage is a pretty ridiculous plan for anyone who has any engineering knowledge.

Quote HarbingerDawn ()
If so, then I guess that's... somewhat accurate, but it still has nothing to do with the company itself.

It is very simple. If SpaceX wishes to go to Mars, it is necessary for them to become public company - to attract enough funds and partnership. And information is the most important part of that.

Quote HarbingerDawn ()
NASA and SpaceX are sharing data and resources with each other, and each one is saving the other a lot of money that they otherwise would have had to spend getting the data by themselves. This data sharing is a shining example of cooperation between SpaceX and NASA, and is beneficial to both parties, which both have publicly stated.

The fact that they cooperate in several individual cases does not mean they share the same views and do not compete with each other for these views of the future, you are leading the discussion away from the important points away. Again.

Quote HarbingerDawn ()
There was no burgeoning commercial space revolution in the 1990s. What you're referring to simply DID NOT EXIST. There were a couple of companies which played around with some new ideas - with significant government involvement - like Orbital Sciences and Lockheed, but they did not achieve very much.

Well, this now is a simple ignorant denial. This graph shows that there was a huge spike of commercial launches in 90-s, and obviously it is very significant moment of history. Probably they weren't enough "bold" and "diverse" for current generation of young men with their "internet" knowledge, but for anyone who is at least somewhat more developed and collected, the reality is more important than fantasies.



Quote HarbingerDawn ()
The current situation is vastly different: there are many companies pursuing much bolder and more diverse ideas, and actually succeeding with them. SpaceX and Blue Origin are perfect examples of this.

Quite ironically, their achievements are mostly in declaration those ideas and making moves like they are achieving them. insofar, SpaceX is only successful with realization of one of their project (to some degree), Blue Origin... not so much.

Quote HarbingerDawn ()
You seem to have some extremely simplified and erroneous ideas about capitalism... no one I know of thinks that way.

http://www.techinsider.io/rloop-p....-2016-5
Simplification is a very powerful tool for understanding, if done right. Instead of burying the essence of the problem in myriad of short-sighted statements, you must go directly to the core idea and study it dispassionately. Modern space industry (and even science) is turning more and more into the show business, and as such, people like to empathise this direction of thought. And reason why Musk is so popular is not only explained by his talent as a leader, but mostly by his identity as a public figure. He entertains people, and people respond too him in kind. But then there are other people worried like me.

http://www.thenational.ae/uae....er#full
The downside of this problem is very obvious - as much as it attracts the sight to the concept of space exploration, it diverts the attention from challenges of it, which are very much real. It dilutes the complex problem of human exploration to the point where a hugest project in the sight of humanity at large is seen as a hot topic for discussion in social nets. The progress here has already came to abrupt halt. And people go as far declare arguments like "we already have all necessary things for Mars" - for god's sake, so did the cavemen a million years ago, it just took them so much to come to space.

Attachments: 0655192.png(216Kb)
 
MosfetDate: Monday, 09.05.2016, 09:16 | Message # 273
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Quote Aerospacefag ()
Quote HarbingerDawn ()
There was no burgeoning commercial space revolution in the 1990s. What you're referring to simply DID NOT EXIST. There were a couple of companies which played around with some new ideas - with significant government involvement - like Orbital Sciences and Lockheed, but they did not achieve very much.

Well, this now is a simple ignorant denial. This graph shows that there was a huge spike of commercial launches in 90-s, and obviously it is very significant moment of history.


Warning: different meaning detected.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Monday, 09.05.2016, 10:46 | Message # 274
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Quote Aerospacefag ()
It seems I need you to have a little lesson here.

It seems I need you to have a little lesson here.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/propaganda

Quote
A concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people.

Influencing opinions and behavior = manipulation.

Just because you can find other definitions which use different words does not invalidate the definition I already presented.

Quote Aerospacefag ()
Yes, stating that you are going to making space suits "like in the movies" and then selling it as an advantage is a pretty ridiculous plan for anyone who has any engineering knowledge.

False. SpaceX never said any of that, as demonstrated by the article that you yourself linked as evidence. You're making things up. Either prove your assertions about what you think SpaceX says by using DIRECT QUOTES or admit that you're wrong. There is no reasonable alternative.

Quote Aerospacefag ()
If SpaceX wishes to go to Mars, it is necessary for them to become public company - to attract enough funds and partnership.

False. It is not necessary for them to become a public company, and Elon Musk has stated explicitly that SpaceX will NOT become a public company until after the settlement of Mars has begun. They can gather funds and partners as a private company, there is no obstacle to that.

Quote Aerospacefag ()
The fact that they cooperate in several individual cases does not mean they share the same views and do not compete with each other for these views of the future, you are leading the discussion away from the important points away. Again.

False. I am not leading the discussion anywhere. I am only responding directly to claims that you make. YOU are the one who claimed that SpaceX wants to compete with and degrade NASA. I simply addressed that claim and proved that it's false. Anyway, the goals of SpaceX and NASA are not opposed to each other, only a madman would assume that they will compete with each other, especially when cooperation has already been so beneficial for them.

Quote Aerospacefag ()
Simplification is a very powerful tool for understanding, if done right.

And you did it wrong, as I said. A correctly simplified concept remains accurate even after it is simplified. The simplified version of capitalism that you presented was NOT accurate. However I do believe that it does represent your true beliefs about capitalism, which means that your beliefs about capitalism are fundamentally flawed... I cannot otherwise explain how your simplification of those ideas could be so wrong.

Quote Aerospacefag ()
people go as far declare arguments like "we already have all necessary things for Mars" - for god's sake, so did the cavemen a million years ago, it just took them so much to come to space.

This is possibly the most insane thing you have said so far. Do you REALLY believe that people a million years ago had the technology to go to space? Of course they didn't. But the technology to live on Mars DOES exist today. I challenge you to name even ONE essential technology for humans to travel to and live on Mars which does not exist.

Quote Aerospacefag ()
SpaceX is only successful with realization of one of their project (to some degree), Blue Origin... not so much.

...? SpaceX said they were going to develop and successfully operate an orbital launch vehicle using private capital. They did (Falcon 1, 2008). They said they would develop and successfully operate an EELV-class orbital launch vehicle. They did (Falcon 9, 2010). They said they would develop a cargo spacecraft that would be able to bring cargo to and from the space station. They did (Dragon, 2010/2012). They said they would recover the first stage of their Falcon rockets for reuse. They did (2015). Currently they are nearing the completion of development of the world's most powerful rocket (Falcon Heavy, 2016?) and the world's first manned orbital spacecraft capable of propulsive landing (Dragon 2, 2017?).

Blue Origin has succeeded in developing and flying (to space) the first suborbital spacecraft intended for commercial passenger use, as well as the world's first VTVL reusable suborbital launch vehicle (New Shepard, 2015).

And despite all these facts, you claim that SpaceX has only PARTIALLY completed JUST ONE of its projects, and claim that Blue Origin has done essentially NOTHING. You are either deliberately making false statements, or you are woefully ignorant of the activities and history of these two companies.

Quote Aerospacefag ()
Well, this now is a simple ignorant denial. This graph shows that there was a huge spike of commercial launches in 90-s, and obviously it is very significant moment of history.

...You think that simply because an unusually large number of commercial satellites were launched that means there was a "significant moment in history"? What was so significant about it? What progress was made? What new technologies were developed?

You keep making very vague references to "significant" events in commercial space in the 1990s, yet you continually fail to provide clear examples of what was so significant, while I HAVE provided some information about what happened at that time, and explained why it was completely dissimilar to what is happening now. Either directly address this with clear facts and evidence, or stop talking about it.



Going back to this point:

Quote Aerospacefag ()
you are leading the discussion away from the important points

I honestly have no idea what the "important points" of this discussion even are. Neither, apparently, does Destructor1701, as he said. As far as I can tell, you're just on a vague rant about how capitalism in general and SpaceX in particular are somehow bad.

So I'm going to make this decision now, both as a participant in this discussion, and as a forum administrator: this conversation is being reset. If you want to continue this discussion, you must start by stating CLEARLY AND UNAMBIGUOUSLY each point that you are trying to make. For the sake of clarity, you should limit these to the most important points. You must also support any assertions that you make with clear FACTS AND EVIDENCE. Otherwise your assertions will simply be dismissed, as any child with a keyboard can make a claim without backing it up.

I'll repeat: this conversation is starting over from the beginning. From now on I will only reply to posts on this topic which contain clear points that are supported by reasoning and evidence. If you don't make any such posts, I will not reply since it would be a waste of time.





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WatsisnameDate: Monday, 09.05.2016, 11:04 | Message # 275
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It seems my friendly reminder was too subtle. This thread will now be locked for a day so people can cool down.




 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 10.05.2016, 00:40 | Message # 276
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If you guys do plan to start this discussion up again, please move it to the Newspace thread
http://en.spaceengine.org/forum/23-987-1

I would have moved all the posts however the website kept bugging out and I was unable to.







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AerospacefagDate: Wednesday, 11.05.2016, 14:25 | Message # 277
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Quote DoctorOfSpace ()
If you guys do plan to start this discussion up again

Not really, I've had enough of that with SpaceX people.
 
steeljaw354Date: Tuesday, 31.05.2016, 17:49 | Message # 278
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We pollute our skies,water, and ground we brutally murder and kill animals for consumption while poisoning our selves. We waste our time with wars and video games instead of putting an effort to take care of our world, if this continues we will end our selves. We must switch to solar and "green" energies and make peace between nations.

We must stop pollution soon before it's to late.
 
HornblowerDate: Tuesday, 31.05.2016, 21:01 | Message # 279
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Forget pollution. Right now the biggest challenge we're facing is fresh water to drink
 
steeljaw354Date: Tuesday, 31.05.2016, 21:06 | Message # 280
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That's also pollution (if it's manmade issue) just have a filter.
 
HornblowerDate: Tuesday, 31.05.2016, 21:35 | Message # 281
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It's that we humans are growing in number and we drink a lot of water. Also, out of all the world's water, only a very tiny amount is safe to drink
 
steeljaw354Date: Tuesday, 31.05.2016, 21:49 | Message # 282
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Filter out the oceans.
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 31.05.2016, 22:00 | Message # 283
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Quote Hornblower ()
the biggest challenge we're facing is fresh water to drink


Non issue blown out of proportion by the lack of investments in desalination plants. There is no water shortage, water is everywhere and all that is required is for humanity to find ways to access it. When a country gets thirsty enough you can count on plenty of desalination plants being built with little concern for the cost.





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apenpaapDate: Tuesday, 31.05.2016, 22:21 | Message # 284
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Fresh water is definitely not a non-issue, though I wouldn't call it our biggest challenge either. Salinising soil water is a major threat to agriculture, which is already often stretched thin in the affected areas. There are certainly solutions, but these, like you said, often cost a lot. This is especially a problem as it disproportionally affects the tropical regions, where the money to deal with these kind of problems often isn't available.




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Edited by apenpaap - Tuesday, 31.05.2016, 22:21
 
HornblowerDate: Saturday, 04.06.2016, 03:00 | Message # 285
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Now our worst fears are realized;
A new stand of E. Coli has become antibiotic resistant
 
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