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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Spiritual future (Post your thoughts...)
Spiritual future
VoekoevakaDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 19:27 | Message # 1
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I am a fan of the Kardachev scale, and I love thinking about the future of the humanity. By looking Dyson spheres, I imagine every thing that humanity will be able to build tomorrow, and I hope that poverty and war will be just a step before "light".

Noticing that the most of the science-fiction authors deal with technology, spaceships, and insane weapons, I wonder if an alternative future would be possible.

A future where spirituality take a more important place, a future where everyone could develop mental abilities that could replace computers, a future where life could reach an incredible power...

This kind of "utopia" can be seen in a french movie I love ("la belle verte"), where human-looking extraterrestrials travel to earth with the power of their thoughts, and discover our society. This "contact" is told with humor and philosophical reach.

Our future is a mystery, and life is a mystery, and today, noone knows how would look like the world tomorrow.





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pebbleDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 21:29 | Message # 2
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I've always considered the Kardashev Scale to be a rather masculine (read: power- and hierarchy-oriented) and short-sighted yardstick by which to measure a civilization. It's how you use the energy at your disposal that matters most, not simply the quantity you can spend.

For example: powered aerodynamic flight, the internet, the development of language -- none of these things involved significant changes in Humanity's available energy. Yet they spawned profound changes in our civilization, by the clever ways in which we directed the existing forces.

I'm not saying the Kardashev Scale is invalid, only that it feels like 19th-Century thinking applied to a future that may involve very different success criteria.

If we're going to reach the stars in a useful way, I believe we'll have to dance with the forces of nature, not beat them over the head with a hammer of raw power.

So, in my mind, what the original poster called spirituality is absolutely central to our evolution. It may not be a religious thing, but it would involve a subtle and deep partnership with reality on many levels.

Of course, I could be very wrong.


Edited by pebble - Friday, 17.08.2012, 21:30
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 21:39 | Message # 3
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Quote (pebble)
It's how you use the energy at your disposal that matters most, not simply the quantity you can spend.

For example: powered aerodynamic flight, the internet, the development of language -- none of these things involved significant changes in Humanity's available energy. Yet they spawned profound changes in our civilization, by the clever ways in which we directed the existing forces.

I'm not saying the Kardashev Scale is invalid, only that it feels like 19th-Century thinking applied to a future that may involve very different success criteria.

If we're going to reach the stars in a useful way, I believe we'll have to dance with the forces of nature, not beat them over the head with a hammer of raw power.

So, in my mind, what the original poster called spirituality is absolutely central to our evolution. It may not be a religious thing, but it would involve a subtle and deep partnership with reality on many levels.

You are awesome, and I agree with everything you've said.

My only objection is to the term "spirituality". I know that it's just being used here to describe one's way of thinking and feeling about the cosmos, and the principles that they derive from that, but it seems that it's really just personal philosophy. The word spiritual seems to be used only to enhance the emotional aspect, which is a dangerous road to travel at this point in humanity's cognitive development (read: susceptibility to religion/superstition and decreased deference to reason).

I used to use the same term in the same way, but recently I've been checking myself on it.





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Antza2Date: Friday, 17.08.2012, 21:58 | Message # 4
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My view on spirituality has always been skeptic.
As a transhumanist i hope that one day we will evolve out of our biological bodies and become a hybrid of flesh and machine with a joined intelligence that is constructed out of individual intelligence's (much like the Geth from Mass Effect.). That would allow us to combine the human curiosity and inventiveness with the brute calculation power of the machine. That way we could come up with the most efficient way of expanding to the universe and at the same time lose the limitations of human life span. I don't think spirituality would have any place in that world (Depends on how you use the word.).

But this is just my opinion smile

Edit: Over 100 messages already? Wow!





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Edited by Antza2 - Friday, 17.08.2012, 22:07
 
AerospacefagDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 22:31 | Message # 5
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Quote (Voekoevaka)
A future where spirituality take a more important place, a future where everyone could develop mental abilities that could replace computers, a future where life could reach an incredible power...

I consider this as the trick of mind, because, the future of technology and progress that modern sci-fi describes, is very different to the future of so-called "spiritual" world. Technically, there's no spiritual future of humanity at all, there's only a future of some humans, process or organization, it is in undetermined, constantly changing condition. And so, the concept of progress only makes sense in relation to terms of energy and matter.

I like the stories of Clifford Simac, but I'd rather believe in some hidden possibilities than the power of pure mind, which is not a "power" in the reality, by definition.

Quote (pebble)
I'm not saying the Kardashev Scale is invalid, only that it feels like 19th-Century thinking applied to a future that may involve very different success criteria.

You may think that because you have a point of view from 19-th century, but the meaning of Kardashev Scalale lies deeper than that. He was thinking about the longest process in humans' history, which isn't that much affected by technical revolutions, and I'm not even talking about fashion and culture. From the position of 20-th century, it's just a valid, significant forecast of the future, that is more comprehensive than anything before.


Edited by Aerospacefag - Friday, 17.08.2012, 22:31
 
VoekoevakaDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 22:46 | Message # 6
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Quote (peeble)
It's how you use the energy at your disposal that matters most, not simply the quantity you can spend.

Yes, the Kardachev scale is useful to classify easily the civilisations, using their energy consumption, but it is limited. I think the "so-called" intelligence of a civilisation, individual or collective, should come out by a different way : art or mathematics, for example.

Quote (peeble)
So, in my mind, what the original poster called spirituality is absolutely central to our evolution.

The notion of spirituality is difficult to apprehend, and I think we could oppose spirituality to materialism. Spirituality could be the way of using forces and energies that occur deep in human nature instead of in our engines, natural or supernatural.

Sometimes I imagine that all the UFO we have seen are just spiritual projections of aliens visiting our world.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 23:08 | Message # 7
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Quote (Voekoevaka)
The notion of spirituality is difficult to apprehend, and I think we could oppose spirituality to materialism. Spirituality could be the way of using forces and energies that occur deep in human nature instead of in our engines, natural or supernatural.

Sometimes I imagine that all the UFO we have seen are just spiritual projections of aliens visiting our world.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that "spiritual" matters pertain to energies that exist inside of us and pervade nature, or at least sentient life.

I would say that I do not agree that this "spiritual" aspect of reality even exists. There is certainly no evidence for it, and no reason to believe it is true except for wishful thinking. Just like most other supernatural beliefs.

And almost all the UFOs that have been reported have been proven to be mundane things or hoaxes.





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AerospacefagDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 23:26 | Message # 8
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Quote (Voekoevaka)
Spirituality could be the way of using forces and energies that occur deep in human nature instead of in our engines, natural or supernatural.

The problem is, just imagine, that it quite possible that these "hidden" or "deep" forces are not even remotely connected to your "spirit". This reminds me the concept of Zone from Stalker, the place of alien and frightening wonders.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I would say that I do not agree that this "spiritual" aspect of reality even exists.

I say, let's not just close the discussion in a vicious circle of the existence problem, that would be very cruel to all believers. Instead, we can just imagine the possibilities. Most of the errors come from the interpretation of evidence, so we can explain the nature of things on a deeper level.



Edited by Aerospacefag - Friday, 17.08.2012, 23:32
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 23:51 | Message # 9
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I say, let's not just close the discussion in a vicious circle of the existence problem, that would be very cruel to all believers.

I'm not saying that we should close the discussion, discussion is good. But I am saying that I see no reason to conclude that a "spiritual" side of nature does exist, and no one should jump to any conclusion about anything unless there is overwhelming, incontrovertible evidence to support it, and no better explanations exist. Regarding a spiritual aspect of reality, this is not the case.





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VoekoevakaDate: Friday, 17.08.2012, 23:58 | Message # 10
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The scientist's duty is to explore and to study everything that is unknown, and our ignorance make us evolve and find new solutions. There is no serious scientific studies around spiritual powers, and this is so because, some scientists are skeptical, or they doesn't want to study this, and, on the other hand, interrested scientists fear the teasings of the people they are working for. And, in these two cases, I don't see scientific mind.

Around 100 years ago, spirituality was called "witchcraft" by scientists, and then they discovered quantum mechanics, that allows a lot of facts that was unimaginable before. Now we know that quantic delocalisation is omnipresent in our metabolism, and that we can create the effects of a molecule without creating it. We can almost explain telepathy with it.

I hope that, in the future, science and art will melt together, and we will became conscious of our nature and its forces...

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
And almost all the UFOs that have been reported have been proven to be mundane things or hoaxes.

Yes, almost all





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HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 00:45 | Message # 11
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Quote (Voekoevaka)
The scientist's duty is to explore and to study everything that is unknown

Yes, I agree. But a scientist also is always aware that they do not know the truth, and they go only where the evidence leads. It is hard to persist in a scientific study on a subject for which there are so few testable hypotheses and so little evidence. I find it hard to believe that there have been no scientific investigations into the matter though.

Quote (Voekoevaka)
Yes, almost all

And for the ones that cannot be explained so easily, there is still no hard evidence that there is anything OTHER than a mundane explanation.

My only point is that no one should draw any conclusions about things for which there is no evidence. It's okay to talk about such things, as long as we all acknowledge that it is only conjecture and speculation. That's all I'm saying. I openly admit that I think it's possible that there is something beyond the material aspect of nature. I just see no good reason to believe that that is true.

Quote (Voekoevaka)
I hope that, in the future, science and art will melt together, and we will became conscious of our nature and its forces...

Science and art are both extremely important, but should remain separate. If you merged them together, each one loses an important aspect of itself, and both would suffer. I know that the idea of them merging sounds emotionally appealing, but when you stop and think about it logically, it would probably be a bad thing.





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AerospacefagDate: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 01:34 | Message # 12
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But I am saying that I see no reason to conclude that a "spiritual" side of nature does exist

I say, it doesn't exist in the area of human knowledge. And therefore I must absolutely dismiss it from the discussion. However it's just too boring - science does not necessarily eliminates everything uncertain.

So let's see something about philosophy behind that.

Quote (Voekoevaka)
Around 100 years ago, spirituality was called "witchcraft" by scientists, and then they discovered quantum mechanics, that allows a lot of facts that was unimaginable before.

No, you absolutely don't understand. Science is not magic. Magic is basically doing things that seems completely unrelated to the result. As well as science do - may some unsophisticated mind conclude, but that's not true, every scientist can explain motives of a phenomenon, reason behind some action. Knowledge is basically available for everyone, it's no mystery. Contrary to that, "witchcraft" states that it is impossible or harmful to know the truth behind something mysterious.

Quote (Voekoevaka)
Now we know that quantic delocalisation is omnipresent in our metabolism, and that we can create the effects of a molecule without creating it.

So, as you can see - even if it is possible for one molecule, we don't know what challenges we can face when we'll make several dozens of them for good use.
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 02:06 | Message # 13
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And therefore I must absolutely dismiss it from the discussion.

I see no reason that it can't be discussed in a hypothetical or conjectural sense. Discussing ideas is part of the path to increasing knowledge and understanding, so long as it is done in a manner that accounts for the unknown and for human fallibility.

The question of spirituality is like the question of a creator: it is certainly a possibility, but as facts about it are presently unknowable it cannot be seriously discussed except in a hypothetical manner.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Saturday, 18.08.2012, 02:07
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 05:35 | Message # 14
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what an interesting topic.

Personally I see spirituality as more of a consciousness expanding thing. Using our technology to expand the limited range of awareness we currently have. However I'm one of the few people who thinks we may reach a "utopian" like society by the 2040s-2050s.

Quote Aerospacefag
Technically, there's no spiritual future of humanity at all


This is true most likely. The fast paced advancements in technology will inevitably force most humans to change themselves, its not a spiritual advancement but has much of the same ideas behind it.

Quote Voekoevaka
a future where everyone could develop mental abilities that could replace computers, a future where life could reach an incredible power...






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TalismanDate: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 05:52 | Message # 15
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The question of spirituality is like the question of a creator: it is certainly a possibility, but as facts about it are presently unknowable it cannot be seriously discussed except in a hypothetical manner.


Agreeing with this.

It's just so highly unlikely there's no point in "believing" in it. cool





 
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