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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Science vs Military budgets (Where should the money go?)
Science vs Military budgets
HarbingerDawnDate: Sunday, 12.08.2012, 01:21 | Message # 16
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Aerospacefag, you're right. And I have a lot of experience with people who don't understand the issues that face society and humanity, or just don't care about them. Most of my family is made of these people, as are large fractions of the population in my country (and much of the world, for that matter).

There is an election coming up for President here in the United States in a few months, and right now the biggest campaign issue has been how much one candidate pays in his taxes, and how much the other candidate is being civil about it. These are absolutely trivial and meaningless items for a head of state to deal with. I personally do not think that either of these candidates is fit to run a grocery store, let alone a nation-state with the power, wealth, and influence of the USA. But the entire political system here is broken and I see no practical way of fixing it, not with the American people acting like sheep all the time.

Back on topic, the question of budgets and where to spend money is actually more relevant to your points than it might sound at first. Investing money in certain government projects, certain industries, or certain companies can lead to a very positive and progressive impact, even if the government and the citizenry do nothing on their own. There are some people who understand what problems exist in the world and who have the desire to change them. If money winds up in their hands, then they start to have the ability to change things. Through the research and development of technologies, through engaging the public and getting people excited about their upcoming solutions, even if they did not care about the problem, and this can have a feedback effect on the government too, leading to more attention and funding for the right things, and politicians to pay more attention to important issues because the people are now more aware and enthusiastic about them.

A good example of someone in the world who is doing this right now is Elon Musk, the founder of SpaceX, head of Tesla Motors, and chairman of Solar City. He is revolutionizing the spaceflight industry, electric automobiles, and doing great work on photovoltaics in the US (though he has little to do with that endeavor, at least right now). And all the while he is getting the public excited about these things. If more of the right people had the means to effect change, then things could start improving. The biggest problem is the wealth gap. The majority of the money resides in the hands of very few people, and these people aren't likely to spend it all on projects for the public good, and there is little ability for those without money to get enough to make any real change. So it basically all comes back to getting everyone to realize what the problems are, how serious they are, and getting everyone to work together, which may be impossible..





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AerospacefagDate: Sunday, 12.08.2012, 02:48 | Message # 17
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Aside from generalized discussion I want to add some personal comments on that.
IMHO, modern concept of market is not the thing that is able to preserve the world in one piece. Not that some instances of ruling power is unable to hold the situation, but the whole concept of private industry is doomed to find it's end in upcoming changes. See, the point is that the efforts of globalisation have gone in vain because the real reason behind them was the private interest - not collective initiative.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
But the entire political system here is broken and I see no practical way of fixing it, not with the American people acting like sheep all the time.

I'm not that confident about this situation, but it seems that political and economic, despite of struggling, are slowly submerging into a chaos - but from this chaos, a new form of government may appear.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Investing money in certain government projects, certain industries, or certain companies can lead to a very positive and progressive impact, even if the government and the citizenry do nothing on their own.

The exploration of space, I believe, calls not only for economic changes, but changes in mind of people - so that they will be able to comprehend the challenges they encounter. The reason why USSR had it's own efficient and purposeful program is that they subjected their economy(not just part of it) for that mission, they understood how much time and energy it would take - not for one particular challenge, but for whole new complex of things, tendencies, or even meaning of life. And the space tourism clearly isn't the greatest part of this whole new world.
This is how I think about this.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
A good example of someone in the world who is doing this right now is Elon Musk, the founder of SpaceX, head of Tesla Motors, and chairman of Solar City.

SpaceX, for me, are different from other companies of it's kind, because it had very practical purpose of creating a working spacecraft (using NASA's experience), but I don't see any other groundbreaking result in this area. Maybe you know about such projects as MAKS and Almaz - based on achievements of USSR space program, but they all are not that active right now - events are delayed year after year. And other "private companies" aren't making a great progress in that direction too.


Edited by Aerospacefag - Sunday, 12.08.2012, 02:51
 
desertsoldier22Date: Sunday, 12.08.2012, 06:52 | Message # 18
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Regardless of the politics involved which the majority seems to come from naive college intellectualism (I actually fought in those ineffective wars and know we need to engage these crazy idiots wherever they exist, The Chechen rebels are no better and I agree with Russia on their campaign as well) or state propaganda from RN (why does your government feel they need to run or even influence a media outlet?).

The real fact of the matter is why rely on the government for space exploration? For one ...even in the race to the moon, every spacecraft, peice of infrastructure and design came from the private sector...NASA pretty much just funded it. Northrop Grumman, Bell aircraft, Boeing etc basically carried the engineering weight on their shoulders, with NASA officials providing feedback. The future in space exploration, like the quest for the New World will be profit motivated first, exploration second. Instead of gold , and the spice trade it will be helium 3, rare heavy metals and the prospect of refuge from tyranny and overpopulation on the "old world". The problem with intellectual arguments and black and white logical arguments is that the human being does not operate like that. We are individuals and we look out for number one first.

I predict the moment we discover an Earthlike world within 10 light-years, the game will be on. There will be a massive shift in priorities, because there will be a way for enterprising individuals to escape this crap ass lazy planet, and go somewhere where they can build something new they can call there own without fear of somebody taking it from them.

You wan't to read a book about why somebody would want to go to a savage new world, read Allen Steeles Coyote, it pretty much covers the whole spectrum.


Edited by desertsoldier22 - Sunday, 12.08.2012, 06:56
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Sunday, 12.08.2012, 09:31 | Message # 19
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Quote (desertsoldier22)
For one ...even in the race to the moon, every spacecraft, peice of infrastructure and design came from the private sector...NASA pretty much just funded it.

Not true. In the US, yes, private industry built the hardware, and also designed much of it, but much was also designed or strictly dictated by NASA and, especially in the beginning, the USAF. It wasn't just a situation where the government said to Boeing/North American/Grumman/General Electric/whatever "Hey, we want to beat the Russians to the Moon, here's $50 billion, make it happen". That's not how it worked.

And in the USSR, government-run industry built the space hardware.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
he problem with intellectual arguments and black and white logical arguments is that the human being does not operate like that.

I haven't heard a "black and white" argument from anyone here yet. I know very well how the human mind works, and I agree it is frustrating to see naive well-intentioned liberals fighting the wrong fights, but I don't see any clear example of that in anyone's arguments here yet. But if by "black and white" you mean taking an uncompromising stand on an ideal, principle, or moral, then you will definitely see people here, myself included, demonstrating that behavior. The world needs more of that in my opinion. Society likes to tell itself that there's some element of "truth" in every opinion, belief, or perspective. There isn't. Sometimes, there is a right answer, and every other answer is wrong. The tricky part is being able to reliably distinguish the two.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
Regardless of the politics involved which the majority seems to come from naive college intellectualism

The majority of American politics stems from anywhere BUT naive college intellectualism. The majority of American politics stems from the shallow, myopic, judgmental, closed-minded, ignorant, self-serving views that most people posses, including the politicians. People who can't see past their next decision to the consequences of their actions, or inactions. This is what is poisoning American society and government (and has been for the history of the country really, it's just how people are).

Quote (desertsoldier22)
I predict the moment we discover an Earthlike world within 10 light-years, the game will be on.

That's not going to happen, because there is most likely no such world that nearby.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
The future in space exploration, like the quest for the New World will be profit motivated first, exploration second. Instead of gold , and the spice trade it will be helium 3, rare heavy metals and the prospect of refuge from tyranny and overpopulation on the "old world".

Quite possibly, and almost certainly if the status quo is maintained. I would never argue that something different is more likely, only that something different might be preferable.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
There will be a massive shift in priorities, because there will be a way for enterprising individuals to escape this crap ass lazy planet, and go somewhere where they can build something new they can call there own without fear of somebody taking it from them.

Except that everyone will go and do it and they'll all try to make their own little dominion out of it and they'll all end up fighting each other over it, so nothing changes. It is inevitable without some shift in human society and collective values before then.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
we need to engage these crazy idiots wherever they exist

Define "crazy idiots" because by my definition there are crazy idiots just about everywhere, so stopping them via conventional military means is futile and self-defeating. It's the same type of thing that the "naive well-intentioned liberals" that I mentioned earlier do, fight the symptom instead of the cause. You cannot stop ideology and malcontent by killing people and occupying nations, you need to address the root source of the ideology and malcontent. That's not to say that there's not a military role in defending against said "crazy idiots" in the interim, just that armed force in itself will ultimately solve nothing.



Aerospacefag, sorry I didn't respond to your points yet, I had a response written earlier which was lost somehow, and now I need to go to sleep, but I will not forget to comment on what you've said!





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Sunday, 12.08.2012, 09:35
 
ChrisDate: Sunday, 12.08.2012, 12:16 | Message # 20
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From your post #18 I can tell that we disagree on alot of things. But it's still good that we can be interested and inspired by the same things.




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desertsoldier22Date: Sunday, 12.08.2012, 21:48 | Message # 21
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Yes the Russian space program was at a time entirely government funded and ran, but at the expense of people starving to death and terrible quality control. Even within the communist hierarchy there were government run co-ops such as Mikoyan and Illyushin and various independant aerospace firms serving self interested parties that made the accomplishments happen.

To answer a previous question about close minded individuals, nothing is more close minded than the left. You guys hang on principals that were orginated in the late 1800's. Continue to be adamant about values and economics systems that have bankrupted entire continents. If you knew so much about human nature than why can't you come up with a governmental system that is compatible with it? The is already such a system and it is called free markets and limited government, that was the intent of the founders of the United States and the only reason why we have shrank influences because we have gotten away from those priniciples.

There is one role that the government does have to invest in and that is its defense. Yes we spend more money on our military than any country (we also have the largest GDP of any country) but as a fraction of the GDP we only spend 4% on defense, less than many countries including Iran. As a fraction of the budget 12% is spent on defense and 6.5% on the actual military services. We however spend 62% on social entitlements and the rest on .infrastructure an emergency relief. So we spend more money on something not intended in our constitution than any thing else. For nearly 200 years our country got along fine without Welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, Medicare, social security and other programs giving money to mostly those who just sit on their ass all day. While the job creators, the innovators are punished for our success. Some of us get taxed as much as 60% of our income to fund these social experiments that worked so well for countries like Greece. Just imagine how much science we could fund if we kicked a few .freeloaders off of the system...this includes corporate welfare and all subsidies

What I meatn by crazy idiots are not simply people that disagree with us, but people willing to erase skyscrapers. Folks that if they had access to nuclear weapons would be more than willing to use them to incite Armageddon. I am not talking about abortion clinic bombers or some guy with an AR-15 in a movie theater but a large group of well trained, highly motivated fanatics who are willing to take the world down with them. I know this not through the news, but because I was there. I have heard them rant and rave about the destruction of the west and any country not embracing the will of Mohammed. If there were just a few of them...no big deal, but this is becoming a cultural thing. Western Europe is dealing with sectors of there populations isolating themselves (some declaring sharia law). You have Saudi and Palestinian schools teaching martyrdom and how to suicide bomb. You think Nazi Germany is scary, wait till these guys unite into an Middle Eastern Coalition.
 
AerospacefagDate: Sunday, 12.08.2012, 22:42 | Message # 22
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Quote (desertsoldier22)
Yes the Russian space program was at a time entirely government funded and ran, but at the expense of people starving to death and terrible quality control.

These word you using - "starving", "quality control" - I don't think you know their true meaning. There was a post-war period, when people of USSR reconstructed the whole cities, industries and created a foundation of unimaginable scale. Population was growing, education was spreading, science and technology leaped ahead by the order of centralized power. It wasn't necessary to remind everyone how and what to do in this situation - they all remembered everything that war have done to their homes, and families, and lives.
And then, 10 years later, the time of new breakthrough has come - it was already another world with different concepts.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
What I meatn by crazy idiots are not simply people that disagree with us, but people willing to erase skyscrapers. Folks that if they had access to nuclear weapons would be more than willing to use them to incite Armageddon.

That is what I mentioned before - about misdirection of attention. People think that the Middle East problem is huge, but what they don't want to know is that this problem is artificial. There is the way to make people peaceful and, maybe, happy - but it's long, hard way that bothers no one. For them, it's better to unleash another war and have their own private profit out of it.
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Sunday, 12.08.2012, 23:17 | Message # 23
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desertsoldier22, in your entire second paragraph you are making broad and unsupported generalizations. You say things like "you guys" implying that 1) everyone on the forum here is a leftist, and 2) that we all agree with each other and conform to the characterization that you gave. Neither of these things is true. I don't consider myself to be on the left, and most liberals would agree that I'm not in their camp. I'm not a communist, I'm not a socialist, and I do believe that a capitalist economic system is the best option for our present society. You say "if you knew so much about human nature then ...". I said that "I" know a lot about human nature. Not everyone in the world. Not everyone that disagrees with you. I. I don't know why you're suddenly throwing me into a camp that I don't belong in. Is it just because I disagreed with you? Does everyone who disagrees with you automatically become a "naive college intellectual liberal" in your eyes? Do you seriously believe that there are only two schools of thought in the world, left and right? That is a false dichotomy, one that far too many Americans ascribe to due to our two-party political system.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
There is one role that the government does have to invest in and that is its defense.

No one is arguing otherwise. It's outlined in the preamble to the US constitution, as are a few other things. Obviously every country should be able to defend itself from those who try to harm it. The debate in this thread is how do you do that, and how much money do you need to spend in order to do it.

You mention terrible quality control in the Soviet space program... I recall accidents, malfunctions, and deaths happening in both the USA and USSR... the US did eventually set a better record on such matters, but the difference was not as significant as you're implying.

Quote (Aerospacefag)
There is the way to make people peaceful and, maybe, happy - but it's long, hard way that bothers no one.

Correct. The solution to this kind of problem is not war, but the solution is also not easy or quick to implement, and people have a hard time seeing past the easy and quick options. Military action can disrupt the activities of organized terror groups, but it cannot create a society that stops producing terrorists. In all likelihood it will just exacerbate that problem. It's like having your arm being eaten by an alligator, and then cutting off your own arm. Well, now he's not eating you anymore, but you also have one less arm and the alligator is still there, so you're worse off than you were before. You need to get rid of the alligator.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
a large group of well trained, highly motivated fanatics who are willing to take the world down with them.

I agree that military force can be, and has been, an effective means of disrupting organized international terrorism. But if all you use is military force, then you will continue to have more people join the cause of those terrorists and the fighting will continue indefinitely, and the only actual military solution then is just to kill everyone on the planet, which is obviously not going to help you. So military force, applied in a specific manner, is a necessary but interim step in dealing with this problem. By itself it solves nothing.



We should probably leave matters such as politics and economics alone if we can't have a civil discussion about them without pointing fingers and casting nets. That is not the purpose of this thread or this forum, and text is far too inefficient a means of communication to discuss issues of this magnitude. Let's try to keep with the core of the original discussion and talk about the issues directly relevant to that, not go off on arguing about why society is the way it is, or who should or should not be fighting in what war where. If we can't stay focused on that, then maybe we should just close this thread.





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desertsoldier22Date: Monday, 13.08.2012, 00:01 | Message # 24
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tWow, I had no idea I was being uncivilized just presenting an opposing view in a thread that seemed like it was preaching to the choir. "You guys" were in fact discussing several left wing ideological principles, a prime example being blaming large military budgets for lack of science funding when in fact to your own admission that the military/NASA and private companies were the bulk of scientific discovery in relation to astronomical sciences. The whole point I am trying to make is do not be so quick to discount and discredit the military, when in reality we have had much more to contribute to science than you think.

The military has been the prime source of diplomacy and nation building in the middle eastern hot spots. We don't go in and burn villages, we help folks develop the resources necessary to build themselves into civilized countries without undermining the key tenets of their culture. But we also prevent the knuckleheads from coming in and opressing the civilians. It has never been about oil, its been about creating a climate so that the terrors of the previous century never rematerialize and millions will have a chance to live a happy fratuitous life (the whole reason why the UN was formed in the first place). If it was about fighting over resources we could have just invaded and took everything, we did not...in fact China has most of the Iraqi oil contracts anyways.

Unfortunately the majority of Americans never encounter the military culture (we only make up .6% of the population), we see everything about them through the lense of movies like Full Metal Jacket or Platoon and other films portraying us a bloodthirsty unprofessional dumb asses. But let me tell you we are alot more like what is portrayed in shows like Stargate (without aliens) than Generation Kill.
 
desertsoldier22Date: Monday, 13.08.2012, 00:24 | Message # 25
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I'm kinda done discussing politics, but when you throw in something like kill the miltary budget/increase the science budget it is bound to be polarizing. Here is plan I think would work to go from Space Engine to real life.

1. Education
We spend millions more than any country on our education system yet it has been proven that our kids are only interested in being liberal arts majors than engineers and scientists (if they even go to college at all). It is high time we bring back a practical applied education system with emphasis on Mathematics, History and Mechanical studies. You don't even see an Auto Shops class in school anymore. A lot of people don't even know how to change their oil, they just sit at home twittering away playing MMOs. I had to argue with one kid who was adamant that Jupiter was larger than the sun smile lol!

2. Think big
Its nice that we have figured out how to send people to low orbit about 400 times, time to think bigger. Put more money into the advanced propulsion sciences. Engines like VASMIR, Diametric Drives maybe even dabble in FTL experiments. An 8 month trip to Mars is not going to work. We need to figure out how to get there in a month or less. Chemical rockets need to be replaced. Create an X-prize to anyone who can figure out how to lower the gravitational mass of an object...etc

3. Make it profitable
Space tourism, private lunar bases, mining...hell if we can create a drive engine to get us to Titan in a month or two we will never run out of hydrocarbons.

4. Find ExoEarths
Nothing will drive an interstellar space race like finding another habitable world. I for one never underestimate our potential. Human beings will always find a way to surmount any obstacle. If you had told Jules Verne that we would be on the moon in less than 80 years he would have called you liar. I think if we put in the resources that we put in on bailouts and federal subsidies we could have a starship. Once you build one, work out the bugs building more will get cheaper and cheaper.
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Monday, 13.08.2012, 00:28 | Message # 26
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Quote (desertsoldier22)
a prime example being blaming large military budgets for lack of science funding

I never blamed military budgets for a lack of science funding. Not once. I may have said that funds currently allocated for military could be used for science, but I never said that the reason we have small science budgets is because we spend on military.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
Wow, I had no idea I was being uncivilized just presenting an opposing view in a thread that seemed like it was preaching to the choir.

The yellow text I wrote above was not directed towards you, it was a general advisory for people to keep in mind. I saw the potential for this thread to get out of hand, and it has already digressed far from its topic, so I was trying to get everyone to be conscious of what they were talking about and whether it was directly relevant to the topic.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
Unfortunately the majority of Americans never encounter the military culture (we only make up .6% of the population), we see everything about them through the lense of movies like Full Metal Jacket or Platoon and other films portraying us a bloodthirsty unprofessional dumb asses. But let me tell you we are alot more like what is portrayed in shows like Stargate (without aliens) than Generation Kill.

This is true. But I am not one of these ignorant or uninitiated Americans in regards to the military. I am very familiar with the military and military culture, I have friends that are in the military, I have spent time on military bases and gotten to know many servicemen and women, I have devoted many years to my life to an interest in the military, its culture, its history, etc, with the intention of joining up one day. Now ultimately I didn't do that, but don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I'm a civilian that I don't know what the military is like.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
The whole point I am trying to make is do not be so quick to discount and discredit the military, when in reality we have had much more to contribute to science than you think.

I have not and would never discredit the military, and I understand more than most how much our technology is tied to military endeavors. You keep making claims that "we" are expressing liberal ideologies, or that "we" are discrediting the military. This again is unwarranted generalization. If someone makes a particular point that you want to comment on, then cite it. Use the quote function. Show where they said the things that you say they said, and have a discussion about particular issues. Otherwise you're undermining your own arguments.

Also, this is not a "we" against "you" sort of thing. This is an open discussion where we talk about our opinions on the relative merits of different ideas.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Monday, 13.08.2012, 00:37 | Message # 27
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Quote (desertsoldier22)
1. Education

Education is a trickier issue. We can all agree that the US education system is FUBAR, but how to fix it is another matter. The problem is not the curriculum, it is the societal emphasis. We pay teachers next to nothing, and so we have lots of bad teachers because many more qualified ones pass up on educating for jobs in industry. Aside from parents, teachers are by far the most influential people in the development of children's minds.
We also have a culture of "well, you go to school so you can get good grades and go to college, and you go to college so you can get a good job", etc. This is not what education is about. We emphasize rote memorization and absorbing facts rather than building minds. You need to be able to get children excited and inspired to learn and achieve. Otherwise everyone will just continue to sit around apathetically and do the bare minimum, or less, like the current generation. Changing the curriculum with solve nothing. You have to change the culture.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
2. Think big
Its nice that we have figured out how to send people to low orbit about 400 times, time to think bigger. Put more money into the advanced propulsion sciences. Engines like VASMIR, Diametric Drives maybe even dabble in FTL experiments. An 8 month trip to Mars is not going to work. We need to figure out how to get there in a month or less. Chemical rockets need to be replaced. Create an X-prize to anyone who can figure out how to lower the gravitational mass of an object...etc

I emphatically agree with this. I've been saying the same thing for years.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
3. Make it profitable
Space tourism, private lunar bases, mining...hell if we can create a drive engine to get us to Titan in a month or two we will never run out of hydrocarbons.

The profit question will take care of itself. Private enterprise will always find a way. The government doesn't need to figure out how to make it profitable for them, they're already scrambling over each other to get at the emerging space market.

Quote (desertsoldier22)
4. Find ExoEarths

This should be a long-term goal. In the interim we will not have the capability for practical manned interstellar flight, and we will need to expand into the solar system far sooner than that anyway. So that is more of a background quest for the foreseeable future.





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desertsoldier22Date: Monday, 13.08.2012, 02:43 | Message # 28
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As far as teacher pay is concerned, what is next to nothing? I know in the struggling school districts such as the Chicago school system Teacher pay starts nearly in the six figures. Not to mention general education is a four year degree. Not that I don't appreciate teachers but they are civil servants like myself and I have more education and get paid less. The median wage for a teacher with tenure is $56,000 a year, that is working 9 months a year. I know in some school districts teachers get paid garbage wages, but that is the exception not the rule. Any teacher that strikes because of a pension or benefit dispute is not really someone I considered dedicated to education. There are are millions of people who would happily take the job for less.

Curriculum and teaching styles however is an issue...I have personally gone to schools in 4 different countries (Japan, Okinawa, Germany and Italy) and I can tell you the problem with our schools is that teachers in our system just read out of the book and assign homework. They are not experts in their fields. I have seen a few exceptions (thankfully I graduated from one of those schools). The best teachers are the ones that inspire you, keep you interested and help you find a passion that can lead to a career. It does not necessarily need to be a teacher to do this but they certainly help. The problem is so many Teachers get comfortable, set their classes on autopilot and never teach life lessons in a field, they spend too much time disciplining little butt heads who disrupt the class instead of getting their attention. The curriculum also needs to be results based, and have an emphasis with practical skills, not social engineering. Kids in Germany with certain talents in certain areas are singled out and sent to relevant specialized schools. In essence they are sent to pre-colleges in the 9th grade. Class sizes there are very large, just like college courses. I know everybody likes to extol the virtues of small classes but we should be prepping for the higher learning environment.

The fourth point i made regarding Exo Earths is very valid because I think we are a lot closer to interstellar flight than we think. Ponder this question...

What if we found out tomorrow that the sun was going nova in 30 years? (I know it wont happen the sun is not massive enough) biggrin

I think we would get the hell out of here very quick...in fact I think we would have interstellar capability in a decade if that happened. If we poured even 10% of our budget (500 billion) into it we would have the capability in less than 20 years. Say we cut entitlement spending by 50% ( half of those people are milking the system anyways) we could do it and still have a trillion left over. Hell give any company working on it a 100% tax exemption, considering the jobs and income tax revenue their employees would generate. I honestly think we could be less than 10 years from unlocking unified theory and possible FTL propulsion if our heart was in it. Who knows it could be easier than we think. They thought fission was impossibly energy intensive, We now know what particle is responsible for mass, we have the tools to delve even deeper into particle physics and somebody will find a practical use if it is worthwhile.

As far as finding EXO-Earths closer than 10 Light-years, yeah there are many candidates. Wolf 359 (M Class Dwarf) long lived possible planets. Alpha Centauri...hell we have not even look at it enough really but computer models show it as a good candidate. Proxima Centauri might have exoplanets. Epsilon Eridani, Ross 154, Banards Star etc. They all have conditions favorable to terrestrial planets.
 
AerospacefagDate: Saturday, 15.09.2012, 12:18 | Message # 29
Pioneer
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Russian Federation
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I want to underline it again - what is real danger for development of humanity is not a military and science budget, it's a modern concept of profit by itself.

This is what I encountered today:



This is my reaction.


Attachments: 5054480.jpg(80Kb)


Edited by Aerospacefag - Saturday, 15.09.2012, 12:19
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 15.09.2012, 14:01 | Message # 30
Cosmic Curator
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United States
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Quote (Aerospacefag)
This is what I encountered today:
Quote (Aerospacefag)
This is my reaction.

Let me make sure I understand this: this man wants to revolutionize the way we generate electricity, providing the world with essentially unlimited clean energy, and he wants to do it in the most practical and affordable way possible, and you disapprove? Commercially viable fusion power has been basically the ultimate dream for people longing for the energy of the future, and now someone comes along and says that it is not only possible, but that it can be done more quickly, more practically, and far more affordably than anyone thought, and you disapprove?

Please explain this to me.





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