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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Interuniversal travel and the fate of civilizations (Wormhole aliens and nuclear war)
Interuniversal travel and the fate of civilizations
TalismanDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 17:58 | Message # 1
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Quote (BlackArk)
Note that 25+ billion year old civilisation could have come form a another univese.


If it was possible to access other universes (if they even exist) then it would have already happened. cool

However, I'm still curious as to how a purely aquatic civilization could become technologically advanced, it might be possible and very simple once we see it, but I just can't think of how they could make things work underwater.





 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 19:18 | Message # 2
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Quote (Talisman)
then it would have already happened.

I don't think humans are in any position to say whether it has or hasn't happened.

Quote (Talisman)
I just can't think of how they could make things work underwater.

They would need to be more advanced than us for that and they would need some form of opposable appendages to manipulate things. I don't think it would be possible for an underwater intelligent lifeform to become spacefaring let alone technologically advanced without another intelligent species coming along and uplifting them.





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 19:19
 
TalismanDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 21:55 | Message # 3
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I don't think humans are in any position to say whether it has or hasn't happened.


Fair enough and I agree, but we can take a logical uneducated guesstimate, bare with me here. cool

IF there are multiple universes then there are most likely an infinite amount of them, or an extremely large finite amount of them (think, how there are billions of planets, billions of stars, billions of galaxies, billions of universes if they exist)

If there are infinite universes AND it was POSSIBLE for civilizations to travel in-between them then due to infinity, there would be infinite civilizations entering our universe which we could surely detect.

Now because we haven't detected anything there are a few options, it's impossible to cross over from other universes. Or other universes don't exist, or they can somehow slip in completely undetected, and every single one of the infinite civilizations have decided to hide, and not make their presence known.

I'm not a big fan of the multiverse theory because it's impossible to detect, observe, and interact with other universes(as far as I know, correct me if there is strong evidence), which means whats the point in thinking they even exist?

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
without another intelligent species coming along and uplifting them.


I'm still wondering how they would be able to develop and run an advanced society even if they were uplifted. You mean like the more advanced land society manufactures underwater equipment and technology for them?







Edited by Talisman - Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 22:01
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 22:25 | Message # 4
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Quote (Talisman)
If there are infinite universes AND it was POSSIBLE for civilizations to travel in-between them then due to infinity, there would be infinite civilizations entering our universe which we could surely detect.


This doesn't make sense.

Quote (Talisman)
You mean like the more advanced land society manufactures underwater equipment and technology for them?


Take humans as an example here. We are on the verge of breakthroughs in computing technology, nanotechnology, and biotechnology. All of which will benefit each other just as they will benefit us. In recent years its been shown dolphins may be nearly as intelligent or even just as intelligent as humans so a method of uplifting a species would not be giving them technology in the ocean but actually bringing them close or to our level.

To do such a thing to an aquatic intelligence would require rewriting parts of their genetic code to make them capable of using such technologies and removing their environmental limitations such as having to rely on water. Much in the same way I suspect humans will turn themselves into more machine based than organic so we no longer have to rely on things like food, oxygen, water, and a limited temperature range to survive.





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Antza2Date: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 22:31 | Message # 5
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Quote (dontpanic)
I've tried that with Universe Sandbox. I changed Jupiter's mass X80 (mass of a brown dwarf) and within a century of the change Mercury was ejected from our solar system, Earth orbital distance became 0.2 AU, Venus was (as far as I could tell) about to be ejected as well (it was very close to the sun), Mars's orbit was just a bit larger than Earth's.
Of course, Universe Sandbox isn't very accurate, still, it is a gravity simulation so I think it is close enough...

I also tested this in Universe sandbox and let it run for about 4 centuries. In that time Jupiter managed to mess up most of the outer planets orbits, but left the inner planets unaffected. Earth, Mars, Venus and Mercury stayed on their normal orbits. Only problem is that Jupiter managed to fling a huge mass of asteroids from the asteroid belt to the inner planets so Earth would have probaply been rendered uninhabitable by asteroid impacts.
(Protip: when using Universe Sandbox, don't speed up time too much because it makes calculations less accurate and can make objects randomly fling out of their orbits. wink )





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TalismanDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 22:33 | Message # 6
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Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
require rewriting parts of their genetic code to make them capable of using such technologies and removing their environmental limitations


So you don't think an aquatic civilization could ever become technologically advanced or space-faring on their own?

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
This doesn't make sense.


Why doesn't it make sense? Assuming it's possible for the few of the most advanced civilizations to be able to somehow slip through a wormhole like BlackArk suggested If there are infinite universes then there are infinite civilizations, if there are infinite civilizations there are infinite civilizations that will be going through a wormhole to other universes. If there are infinite civilizations visiting other universes then there are infinite civilizations visiting our universe. If there are infinite civilizations visiting our universe then we would know. cool

Of course, this is preposterous. But that's how infinity is. Obviously it's most likely not possible to enter a different universe. Much like it's impossible to travel faster then the speed of light.







Edited by Talisman - Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 22:36
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 22:50 | Message # 7
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Quote (Talisman)
you don't think an aquatic civilization could ever become technologically advanced or space-faring on their own?


Nowhere near space faring. They might get social groups(much like dolphins and other Cetacea) or even get to a point of making tribes but I highly doubt they would get to a point of being capable of exploring space. Electronics would not work under water let alone harnessing of fire which was one of the greatest things to ever happen in human civilization. They could harness thermal vents but thats not the same as controlling fire to generate power and fuel a society.

Quote (Talisman)
Why doesn't it make sense? Assuming it's possible for the few of the most advanced civilizations to be able to somehow slip through a wormhole like BlackArk suggested If there are infinite universes then there are infinite civilizations, if there are infinite civilizations there are infinite civilizations that will be going through a wormhole to other universes. If there are infinite civilizations visiting other universes then there are infinite civilizations visiting our universe. If there are infinite civilizations visiting our universe then we would know.


Reasoning is highly flawed. If there were an infinite number of them visiting then there would also be an infinite number of universes where no visitors arrive thus just as much of a chance of never seeing a visitor from another universe. Not to mention a universe is such a massive thing you would have to be lucky enough to be within the detection range of the arrival of such visitors.

So in reality it makes sense that we do not detect alien life from within the universe just as we do not detect extra-universal aliens arriving in our universe.

Quote (Talisman)
Of course, this is preposterous. But that's how infinity is. Obviously it's most likely not possible to enter a different universe. Much like it's impossible to travel faster then the speed of light.


This kind of reasoning is not helpful though in the advancement of science. Its best to keep an open mind to such things rather than outright dismissing them because the moment you ignore them you lose an opportunity to learn more about reality.





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 22:52
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 22:51 | Message # 8
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Ignore infinity for the moment. Let's just say that you have an arbitrarily large number of universes. Only in some of these universes will the conditions exist for life to exist and create technical civilizations. Only in some of those universes will one of those civilizations actually be able to figure out how to achieve interuniversal travel and then actually implement it.

So the number of universes, times the fraction of universes that can allow for technical civilizations, times the fraction of universes that give rise to technical interuniversal travel, divided by the number of universes that exist, yields the odds that any given universe will ever be visited by beings from another universe, provided that each universe that gives rise to technical interuniversal travel only yields one such civilization that only travels one time.
Now with infinity in the picture, we can remove a couple of these elements, and we can also assume that a civilization that can travel between universes will do so more than once, but the point still remains: even though absolute numbers become meaningless in the infinity scenario, ratios still matter. And even in a "best case" scenario, the odds of our particular universe being visited by beings from another are not particularly high, and the odds that they would just so happen to pop up near Earth where we could have a chance of seeing them are so remote as to be absurd.

Excuse me if my logic is messed up anywhere, I'm very tired right now.





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TalismanDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 23:12 | Message # 9
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(WARNING. GIANT POST APPROACHING)


Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Nowhere near space faring.


Agreed completely, I just wanted to see what you thought since you didn't want to fully say yes or no.

I think an amphibian civilization could potentially be technologically advanced. But not a purely aquatic one.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
So in reality it makes sense that we do not detect alien life from within the universe


But this is just because of distances involved, degradation of radio signals, length of time we have been looking, and/or they may be hiding.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Reasoning is highly flawed. If there were an infinite number of them visiting then there would also be an infinite number of universes where no visitors arrive thus just as much of a chance of never seeing a visitor from another universe. Not to mention a universe is such a massive thing you would have to be lucky enough to be within the detection range of the arrival of such visitors.


Maybe, but because of the number of galaxies per universe you can assume that there would be a higher ratio of ones that did go over. And as Harbinger said they would likely not only jump once, which further multiplies the probabilities.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
you would have to be lucky enough to be within the detection range of the arrival of such visitors.


Then you would be implying that a race would be capable of jumping across universes, but not be capable of faster then light travel, which as you said is unscientific.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
This kind of reasoning is not helpful though in the advancement of science. Its best to keep an open mind to such things rather than outright dismissing them because the moment you ignore them you lose an opportunity to learn more about reality.


But science is based on using what we currently understand and sticking with it, until we learn of something new that can change what we once thought so we can form a new understanding. As of now, traveling faster then the speed of light is impossible. This is a fact.

Of course that fact can change if we make a discovery about it! Does that mean we should believe that speed of light is going to be broken any time soon? I don't think so even though I am extremely open minded. I really want there to be a possibility for the speed of light to be broken, perhaps even instant travel anywhere but as far as we know that is just NOT possible right now. Could it be possible in the future? Maybe, I hope so. But what's the point in thinking that it is possible until we know it is possible? cool

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Only in some of these universes will the conditions exist for life to exist and create technical civilizations.


I've heard of the concept of other universes perhaps having different laws of physics, but why would they have different laws of physics? All the other universes could have the exact same laws as ours.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Only in some of those universes will one of those civilizations actually be able to figure out how to achieve interuniversal travel and then actually implement it.


Out of trillions of civilizations per universe none of them can figure it out? Well, we haven't figured it out yet so I guess that's plausible. cool

If we're going to use your odds and calculations then yes, I'd agree it's impossible to know whether it is possible or not, it could very well be.

But we could also say that all the other universes have the same laws of physics, which means that there are billions of galaxies per universe. Out of those billions of galaxies there are billions of advanced civilizations. If it's really really hard to figure out (Not sure what kind of research you would have to do to figure out how to exit a universe and enter a different one) but let's say only 100 of those billions figure it out. That's still quite a few per universe. And with a large amount of universes, and them jumping through an average of lets say 10 universes each, the odds start looking a little more in my favor. Then we could also add on that if that extreme small percentage can manage to travel to other universes then a slightly larger percentage can also manage to travel faster then the speed of light, perhaps instantaneously. Then the odds of us detecting them would grow immensely, and if they figured out how to travel between universes they might just want to brag about it, or even show others. You can assume at least a tiny fraction would be traveling around trying to show other civilizations how to do it.

So that's why I don't think it's possible to travel between universes.

But you are also right in that it is completely possible that it IS possible to travel inbetween universes. It could just be extremely rare like you said. Or we could be in the only universe. Or we're in the universe where everything I say is complete fact no matter what. tongue







Edited by Talisman - Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 23:36
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 23:31 | Message # 10
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Quote (Talisman)
Then you would be implying that a race would be capable of jumping across universes, but not be capable of faster then light travel, which as you said is unscientific.


Being within the detection range covers that possibility. You cannot detect them if they are moving faster than the speed of light which is just more probability against you. Not to mention they could be using exotic materials and meta-materials to block themselves from conventional detection methods. Which is an area in nanotechnology already being explored by humans.

However the idea of moving FTL is still impossible the laws of physics within our universe say nothing can move faster then light because there is not enough energy within the universe to even reach the speed of light. Any sufficiently advanced civilization would need to use something like wormholes, warp drives, and so on which would cause massive spatial distortions and in the case of wormholes possibly a stream of radiation that would be hazardous to life.

There could be other means of traversing space like a slipstream drive but its all hypothetical.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 18.07.2012, 23:55 | Message # 11
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Quote (Talisman)
All the other universes could have the exact same laws as ours

Or none of them could have the same laws ours do. Or they might not even exist in the first place. The point is that we don't know, we don't have enough information to even guess, and that all of these are possible.

Quote (Talisman)
Out of trillions of civilizations per universe none of them can figure it out? Well, we haven't figured it out yet so I guess that's plausible.

I would also contend that trillions of civilizations per universe is unlikely, at least in many cases. In our galaxy I don't think that there are more than a few (i.e. single digit number) other civilizations. I would not be too surprised if we were the only one in existence right now. And it's also likely that even if there are multiple civilizations per galaxy that many of them would never achieve interuniversal travel.

Quote (Talisman)
But science is based on using what we currently understand and sticking with it

Science is not a body of knowledge, it's a philosophy and methodology for pursuing the truth, and it's the best one humanity has ever conceived of. The world would be a far better place if everyone understood the methods and principles of science and integrated them into their daily lives.

Quote (Talisman)
Then we could also add on that if that extreme small percentage can manage to travel to other universes then a slightly larger percentage can also manage to travel faster then the speed of light, perhaps instantaneously. Then the odds of us detecting them would grow immensely

I'm not sure by what leap of logic you arrived at that conclusion, but it makes no sense. Let's say that our universe is being visited by being from other universes 1000 times. Evenly distributed across the universe, we would never detect them. Even if they all came to the Milky Way only, we would still never detect them. Space is vast, time is long, light is slow, and our ability to pay attention to every corner of the universe in agonizing detail is non-existent.

Quote (Talisman)
So that's why I don't think it's possible to travel between universes.

Wait... then what are we talking about again? Who was arguing that it was possible to begin with then? BlackArk? (I'm so lost now, please forgive me, I'm tired smile )

Quote (Talisman)
Then you would be implying that a race would be capable of jumping across universes, but not be capable of faster then light travel, which as you said is unscientific.

Being capable of interuniversal travel and being incapable of superluminal travel are not mutually exclusive.

I'm going to withdraw from this discussion for now because I'm not even sure what we're talking about and I'm very tired, I think I'll just go to sleep : )





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Thursday, 19.07.2012, 01:06
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Thursday, 19.07.2012, 00:19 | Message # 12
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Being capable of interuniversal travel and being incapable of superluminal travel are not mutually exclusive.


Exactly how I see it. If a civilization has the means of producing enough energy for FTL travel then if there is some form of dimensional/universal barrier they would probably have enough energy to "punch" through it.

Harbinger why not move this thread into Science and Astronomy and change the title to something like "Interstellar/Interuniversal travel, The Multiverse, Life, and Technology"?

Really doesn't seem fitting to be an off topic discussion when its just an extrapolation on what is known.





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Thursday, 19.07.2012, 00:20
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Thursday, 19.07.2012, 01:05 | Message # 13
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I thought about putting it in Science and Astronomy, but this is all so speculative and removed from mainstream science that it just didn't seem appropriate. The few discussions already there concerning the topology and origin of the universe are right on what I consider to be the science side of the border. This crosses that line into mostly speculative territory with some science thrown it. But that's just my view of it.

The title reflects what has been discussed up to this point. If it expands into other related areas like the ones you mentioned then I will rename it (unless you really want me to do it now, in which case I will).

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
If a civilization has the means of producing enough energy for FTL travel then if there is some form of dimensional/universal barrier they would probably have enough energy to "punch" through it.

Well that wasn't what I meant. What I meant was that each capability has little bearing on the other. It's possible to have FTL without interuniversal, and I can imagine it being possible to travel to other universes without being able to do FTL (though this is much less likely).

I know I said I was going to sleep, but Chinese food revitalized me!





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Thursday, 19.07.2012, 01:41
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Thursday, 19.07.2012, 01:21 | Message # 14
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
(unless you really want me to do it now, in which case I will).


I guess whenever it really gets into those topics.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I can imagine it being possible to travel to other universes without being able to do FTL (though this is much less likely


I can see the idea of interuniversal travel happening before FTL but if it doesn't then it would probably happen alongside or shortly after FTL depending on how it can be done. Simply going by energy standards if I remember correctly for the warp drive they said it was something like 10^45 joules. I think by that point of energy use you could easily create bridges across the multiverse. That is assuming its possible but if it is then a civilization capable of building a warp drive could easily do that since they would need knowledge on how space works to construct a warp drive. With such knowledge on the universe it just seems likely they could do such things.





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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Thursday, 19.07.2012, 01:23
 
TalismanDate: Thursday, 19.07.2012, 02:12 | Message # 15
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
(though this is much less likely).


Exactly, once a civilization reaches such an understanding of the universe those two would be pretty mutual.

We didn't build rockets and travel to the moon before we made airplanes. cool

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Science is not a body of knowledge, it's a philosophy and methodology for pursuing the truth, and it's the best one humanity has ever conceived of. The world would be a far better place if everyone understood the methods and principles of science and integrated them into their daily lives.


Yes, that's what I meant, I noted how it's an ever changing thing.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)

I would also contend that trillions of civilizations per universe is unlikely, at least in many cases. In our galaxy I don't think that there are more than a few (i.e. single digit number) other civilizations. I would not be too surprised if we were the only one in existence right now. And it's also likely that even if there are multiple civilizations per galaxy that many of them would never achieve interuniversal travel.


Change it to billions and my statement still stands. Even if there was only a single intelligent civilization per galaxy there are many billions of galaxies per universe. I assume you're a drake equation supporter because using it correctly yields a single digit number for our galaxy. However I really think the drake equation is way way too strict and slightly pessemistic, and assumes that civilizations destroy themselves easily, which I think is HIGHLY improbable. You may argue that we have come close but really we haven't been close to extinction ever during modern times, even during the cold war.

We're still here. We haven't nuked each-other to pieces. I'm pretty sure once you can feasibly deploy ICBM's then you're too intelligent collectively to ever destroy your own entire species. I'm sure there are quite a few civilizations out there that have nuked each other to pieces. But I think it's a very very strong minority. Personally I'd say the number of civilizations at or above our level is in the triple/quad digits. cool







Edited by Talisman - Thursday, 19.07.2012, 02:30
 
Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Interuniversal travel and the fate of civilizations (Wormhole aliens and nuclear war)
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