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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Totally off-topic thread (Talk about anything.)
Totally off-topic thread
midtskogenDate: Monday, 13.05.2013, 13:53 | Message # 1261
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Quote (Watsisname)
Is this supposed to be a joke, or an example of people who are ethically unprincipled?

Nobody is intentionally heating up the planet for personal preferences here. It's not unethical to make the best out of the situation. It helps little to express guilt for the world's collective sin, or to distance yourself from its consequences. Leave that to those who have a deity who's impressed by such things.

Quote (Watsisname)
This is an overly simplistic statement about regional temperature change that ignores other important factors.

Such as and relevant to that generalisation in what way?

Quote (Watsisname)
In a 4+ degree warmer world, global agriculture suffers a net loss.

Of course, if we miss the new possibilities, for the sake of ethical principles or whatever, that is certainly going to be true. The agricultural doomsayers have been wrong before and I'm optimistic enough to think they still are, though the reasons have shifted from overpopulation to climate change.





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WatsisnameDate: Monday, 13.05.2013, 15:30 | Message # 1262
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Yes, I noticed how that exchange about 'people who don't like snow' went between you and Harbinger and I changed my above response accordingly. Sorry for the edit throwing things off.

Quote
Such as and relevant to that generalisation in what way?


Global warming does more than simply change regional temperature. What's why the term 'climate change' originated. The regional impacts of climate change are not simply a function of regional temperature change. Furthermore, biomes are not simply influenced by temperature. Thus, your assertions about whether a warmer world will be good or bad and where and why and for whom and whatnot, which were all based off of regional temperature change, are enormously flawed. This led you to incorrect conclusions, as has been demonstrated.

Quote
Of course, if we miss the new possibilities, for the sake of ethical principles or whatever, that is certainly going to be true. The agricultural doomsayers have been wrong before and I'm optimistic enough to think they still are, though the reasons have shifted from overpopulation to climate change.


So, are you acknowledging that your argumentation on how land use and agriculture will change in a 4+ degree world was flawed, or not? If all you can do is dismiss the vast amount of scientific literature on the subject as 'doomsaying', then I'm not sure if I can continue to take you very seriously.

Have you taken the time to look at any of the information I have provided?





 
HarbingerDawnDate: Monday, 13.05.2013, 15:39 | Message # 1263
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Quote (midtskogen)
There's no conspiracy among frozen people to change the climate.

I know that, and I never said nor meant to imply that there was.

Quote (midtskogen)
If we just replace one noun in your statement above it becomes "you don't have to change the global climate to escape the sea, you could just move".

No. People are not choosing to make your home a frozen place for much of the year, it is just naturally like that. On the flip side, people ARE choosing to keep doing unnecessary things which lead to a warming climate which will cause catastrophes like the one I mentioned, and you seem to be arguing that this is acceptable. Also, snow is something you can deal with. Your home being under a meter of water is not.

Furthermore, people in the North are on average much wealthier than people in other parts of the world, and as such it is simply more financially feasible for someone in a snowy place to move than someone who is faced with rising sea levels in Bangladesh.

Quote (midtskogen)
Nobody is deliberately changing anything here for the sake of comfort, real estate value or ultimately habitability

This is irrelevant as my point does not have anything to do with that. You were saying (or so it seemed to me) "well, some people will be happier with a warmer climate and some people will be less happy, so it doesn't make any difference", and I was saying that you're wrong and pointing out why.

Quote (midtskogen)
Nobody is intentionally heating up the planet for personal preferences here.

Again, nobody is saying that, and again, irrelevant.

Quote (midtskogen)
It's not unethical to make the best out of the situation.

It is, however, unethical to use that as a reason for not caring whether the situation occurs in the first place, which is what he meant and what you seemed to be doing.

Quote (midtskogen)
The agricultural doomsayers have been wrong before and I'm optimistic enough to think they still are

We know that the world as it is now can support us. We do not know that a much warmer world could support us without radical efforts on our part. Allowing such an experiment to take place just because you have faith in humanity and/or nature is irresponsible and immoral.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Monday, 13.05.2013, 15:42
 
midtskogenDate: Monday, 13.05.2013, 21:24 | Message # 1264
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I am advocating adaptation for a couple of reasons. First, unless we can find a way to control climate, which itself would be an ethical can of worms, we need to be able to do that anyway. It does not matter if humans generate changes or if nature does it by itself, apart from that humans are at a risk of becoming paralysed by guilt in the case of the former. Secondly, it's politically more realistic simply because the path from action to result is much clearer. Much can be done with sensible building regulation and city planning at a decadal pace. The risk of symbolic or downright damaging actions (like shutting down nuclear power or spending money in projects that have nothing right but the intentions) is also less. This discussion belongs to politics more than science.

This is not saying that spending exhaustible energy resources is good or not worth worry. There's no reason to jump to conclusions here or attacking a strawman. Exhausting is idiocy. The only support I can find for it is that I also think we must acknowledge that it could prove to be a necessary step on the way to something better. Progress is rarely non-destructive.

An imminent 4+ degree rise is not well supported by current data, but that's not really relevant here, nor are the causes. We should be prepared anyway, and I find arguing against it irresponsible. As for the regional effects, models are not good at predicting fine resolution details, like very localised effects, and the predictions change. It's no use yet if the science changes faster than the application. Warmer, wetter, wilder was the catchline for northern Europe until a few years ago. Now it's more perhaps not, if there is less ice in the arctic forming blocking high pressure (but warmer and wetter elsewhere). The research is still ongoing and I can wait a little longer. For what it's worth, a 4+ rise would approach Eocene temperatures, during which time differences between the different latitudes and seasons seem to have been much less, and deserts (polar or tropical) seem to have been far fewer.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Allowing such an experiment to take place just because you have faith in humanity and/or nature is irresponsible and immoral.

The future is an eternal experiment.

It's not faith. The Earth is strongly self-regulating, and it's not a result of our luck. If Earth wasn't, we wouldn't be here, so in that sense it's as much a consequence of our presence as we're a consequence of it. And a similar argument can be made concerning human's ability to adapt.





NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI
 
AerospacefagDate: Monday, 13.05.2013, 23:56 | Message # 1265
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Attachments: 2224472.jpg(6Kb)


Edited by Aerospacefag - Monday, 13.05.2013, 23:56
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 00:08 | Message # 1266
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Oh look, it's someone who's unnecessarily taking up the forum's disk space by uploading pictures that he could have embedded again dry




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werdnaforeverDate: Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 05:03 | Message # 1267
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Oh look, it's someone who's unnecessarily taking up the forum's disk space by uploading pictures that he could have embedded again

Like this?


Attachments: 2224475.jpg(5Gb)


Edited by HarbingerDawn - Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 05:20
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 05:17 | Message # 1268
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Quote (werdnaforever)
Like this?

Heh, well done, though not perfect. I'll fix it for you tongue

NOW it's perfect biggrin





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 05:20
 
werdnaforeverDate: Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 05:25 | Message # 1269
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Heh, well done, though not perfect. I'll fix it for you

NOW it's perfect


Did you realize it was a rickroll or did you click on the link?

EDIT: I mean, was the joke obvious?

Also thanks


Edited by werdnaforever - Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 05:30
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 05:48 | Message # 1270
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Quote (werdnaforever)
was the joke obvious?

Yeah it was obvious from the beginning (obviously since the upload limit is 600 kilobytes), but it was a great joke smile





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VoekoevakaDate: Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 12:35 | Message # 1271
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A fun game !
Do you like candies ?





Want some music of mine ? Please go here !

 
WatsisnameDate: Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 19:11 | Message # 1272
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Quote (midtskogen)
First, unless we can find a way to control climate, which itself would be an ethical can of worms, we need to be able to do that anyway.


We know that our activities are causing this climate change, and we know that continuing these activities will result in outcomes that are drastically unfavorable for the majority of life on Earth and for us as well. Choosing to either cease these actions or else modifying them in some way as to prevent the worst of these outcomes from occurring is an ethical can of worms?

Your view of what is ethical seems completely bass-ackwards to me.

Quote
An imminent 4+ degree rise is not well supported by current data


How do you quantify 'imminent'?

The reality is exactly how I said it in the first place:
Quote (Watsisname)
If we keep procrastinating like this, we'll be facing not 2, but 4 degrees of warming, or even more, by the end of the century.


This is very well supported by current data. 4 degrees is not an outlier prediction, nor is it enormously far off. Indeed, it could occur within some of our lifetimes.

Quote
As for the regional effects, models are not good at predicting fine resolution details, like very localised effects, and the predictions change. Warmer, wetter, wilder was the catchline for northern Europe until a few years ago. Now it's more perhaps not, if there is less ice in the arctic forming blocking high pressure (but warmer and wetter elsewhere). The research is still ongoing and I can wait a little longer.


Well, there's a few things we should note with this. How the climate in northern Europe will change will depend on the nature and timing of arctic sea ice loss, which is difficult to predict. We might be seeing ice free summers by 2050, or it might be much sooner -- it's very difficult to model sea ice change.

Climate models also do not have very high resolution because we don't even have the computer power for it. This is a problem even in weather modelling -- limitations for forecasting weather is currently limited by processing power, rather than level of understanding of dynamics or quality of data from which we produce the initial simulation states. But when it comes to climate modelling we can simulate regional changes, and the models are remarkably consistent with the predictions. See the 4+ degree climate conference, particularly the second presentation in Session One.

Quote
For what it's worth, a 4+ rise would approach Eocene temperatures, during which time differences between the different latitudes and seasons seem to have been much less, and deserts (polar or tropical) seem to have been far fewer.


This is once again an overly simplistic statement about climate and biomes and is not very useful as a comparison to today's world or the near-future world.

This is a map of the world during the Eocene. It's not very wise to draw comparisons of regional climate and biomes between worlds with different arrangement of landmasses. It is even even less wise to use this type of argumentation as a substitute for the results of the climate models we have today.

Quote (Aerospacefag)
Oh look, it's this thread again


You're still young, aren't you? Sooner or later the things that we're talking about in this thread right now are going to become very important in your life, whether you like it or not. I for one think it would be wise to be educated about them, but that's your decision. smile







Edited by Watsisname - Tuesday, 14.05.2013, 22:24
 
midtskogenDate: Wednesday, 15.05.2013, 12:36 | Message # 1273
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Quote (Watsisname)
Choosing to either cease these actions or else modifying them in some way as to prevent the worst of these outcomes from occurring is an ethical can of worms?

Any action that has global consequences has ethical issues. If someone gets the power to change global climate in a controlled manner, yes, I see issues. There will always be a mix of bad and good consequences. To get one area wet, another might have to become dry, and so on. I'm not sure what makes you jump here. That politics tend to seek the path with the least resistance is not a recommendation, just an observation.

Quote (Watsisname)
How do you quantify 'imminent'?

Within this century. I take 4+ as more than 4. The estimates for sensitivity vary, but we need not revisit this.

Quote (Watsisname)
Climate models also do not have very high resolution because we don't even have the computer power for it.

That's overly simplistic, as you say. Just as power can't be infinite, input and methodology never get perfect either. But they can be tested. They could for instance try to recreate the Eocene. It's probably not easy. But it must be harder to use the current conditions, since for the Eocene there are more unknowns leaving more freedom to fill them out with things that will produce the expected results.

I'm surprised that you protest vigorously against a not very controversial statement that global warming, in general, reduces the effects of latitude and seasons, and lessens the extremes in the cold end more than it increases them in the warm end. Forget about the Eocene, then. It can be seen today. Take any unusually warm year at mid to high latitude places and discover that it was due to an extremely warm winter. In the arctic it's not unheard of that winters are 10C warmer than normal, while summers rarely get more than 1-2C warmer. Yes, there are finer details here, but it's like dismissing the vast ice sheets of the last ice age as an oversimplification because much of Siberia even up to the Arctic Sea was ice free and relatively rich in flora and fauna.





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werdnaforeverDate: Wednesday, 15.05.2013, 14:15 | Message # 1274
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Quote (Voekoevaka)
A fun game !
Do you like candies ?

Someone please help me

I am addicted to candies and this game

I just need more of them and more of them and many many many more of them and I just cant stop playing it



Help me please I don't know what to do I've eaten so many candies I think the climate has changed I don't know how that is possible or makes any sense at all but I just said it to make it sound semi relevant to the previous comments even though the title is "Totally Off Topic Thread"

I've got 100 lollipops per second in the farm but that sorceress charges so much- I can't take it any more- the lollipop wealth gap in this society isn't what I find appalling, it's how the elitist rich take all the lollipops from the poor- so sad EDIT: In other words, I don't care how many lollipops she has, I just hate high prices, and I know it's part of the game but whatever

really, anyone who does not know what im talking about should really consider playing the game


Edited by werdnaforever - Wednesday, 15.05.2013, 14:17
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 15.05.2013, 16:16 | Message # 1275
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Quote (midtskogen)
I take 4+ as more than 4

4+ does not mean more than 4, it means 4 or more. >4 would mean more than 4.





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