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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Totally off-topic thread (Talk about anything.)
Totally off-topic thread
NovaSiliskoDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 06:03 | Message # 1036
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Lithp*
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 06:06 | Message # 1037
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Quote (NovaSilisko)
Lithp*

lol

Somebody with a speech impediment is going to be offended.





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Antza2Date: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:20 | Message # 1038
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Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
A Kim Jong Un a day keeps the bombs away






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midtskogenDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:21 | Message # 1039
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[Moved from here]

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
I doubt it would be too heavy on resources if 64 bit support is eventually added, plenty of modern games do far more things at once.

64 bit support is no magic bullet. You can compute some things faster with 64 bits, but in other cases the bottleneck is somewhere else and it wont make a difference (and in theory, some operations could be slower). Still, not using 64 bits in 2013 is a bit strange, since CPU's have had this possibility for a decade.

In my opinion SE has plenty of headroom for doing more computationally complex stuff. I have a relatively new PC (bought last year), but my CPU (quadcore i7-3770K) and GPU (GeForce GTX 670) are not expensive. Still, SE frequently runs at several hundred fps even with the highest level of detail. I wouldn't care if the framerate dropped from 100 to 50 if the tradeoff was improved rendering.

But even if the hardware can do it for most people, it still requires the work of actually implementing it.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:21 | Message # 1040
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Quote (midtskogen)
Still, not using 64 bits in 2013 is a bit strange, since CPU's have had this possibility for a decade.

But not everyone has a 64-bit OS. And many of the apps we use every day are 32-bit as well, especially games. Firefox is 32-bit (unless they have a 64-bit version I missed somewhere), KSP is 32-bit, Steam is 32-bit, and most games from professional studios are as well, unless they were built specifically with the PC in mind rather than PC being an afterthought to the console release, and sometimes not even then. It may seem a bit strange that we still use 32-bit apps, but it's not unusual that SE is 32-bit since so many other things still are too. I doubt we'll see 64-bit apps become the norm until no one uses a 32-bit OS anymore.





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midtskogenDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:21 | Message # 1041
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
But not everyone has a 64-bit OS

True. And it's strange that 32 bit OS's are still getting installed.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
and most games from professional studios are as well

How about the requirement for SSE3 support, do games require that? SSE3 is about a decade old and it should be safe to assume that any x86 PC supports it now. The advantage of SSE3 over SSE2 is not very big, though.

I think paging and virtual memory support was added for the 286, which was released in 1982. This is absolutely essential for a serious multi-user OS. But I don't think Windows made full use of it until 1992 or something. History repeats.





NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI


Edited by midtskogen - Friday, 12.04.2013, 09:19
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:21 | Message # 1042
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Quote (midtskogen)
And it's strange that 32 bit OS's are still getting installed.

Indeed, but even were that not the case there will always be people using systems that are 5-10 years out of date, and you can expect software coding to not be too far ahead of that as far as standards go. For example, I can think of at least one game company *cough*lucasarts*cough* that was still releasing games with 16-bit installers as late as 1999, long after 32-bit operating systems became standard.

And for reasons which are a mystery to me, even Windows 8 is offered in 32-bit form. dry





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SpaceEngineerDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:21 | Message # 1043
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Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
I doubt it would be too heavy on resources if 64 bit support is eventually added, plenty of modern games do far more things at once.

This has no purpose for SE nor other game, because rendering is done on GPU, not CPU. Supporting of 64 bit addressing will just increase RAM available for program. But any textures and meshes must be stored in VRAM, so size of VRAM and power of GPU is the most important thing.





 
midtskogenDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:21 | Message # 1044
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Quote (SpaceEngineer)
This has no purpose for SE nor other game, because rendering is done on GPU, not CPU. Supporting of 64 bit addressing will just increase RAM available for program.

It would speed up the procedural generation.





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SpaceEngineerDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:22 | Message # 1045
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It wouldn't. Procedural generation of landscape is going on GPU. Only galaxies, stars, and planetary systems are generated on CPU, and multicore CPU is much more better for this than few 64 bit instructions.




 
midtskogenDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:22 | Message # 1046
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Yes, exploiting multicore is of course more efficient, but 64 bits is a completely orthogonal feature. If 64 bit gives you 25% (best case scenario perhaps), a 64 bit quadcore would be like a 32 bit pentacore. One more thing, 64 bit support is (for well written programs) a matter of recompiling (disregarding a possible OS reinstall to test it), while turning existing code into optimally load-balanced multithreaded code might be non-trivial.

What's done on the CPU might not be important. As an engine it may make sense not to offload much to the CPU and leave the CPU relatively free for the game code.





NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI


Edited by midtskogen - Friday, 12.04.2013, 13:03
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:22 | Message # 1047
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Quote (SpaceEngineer)
This has no purpose for SE nor other game, because rendering is done on GPU, not CPU. Supporting of 64 bit addressing will just increase RAM available for program. But any textures and meshes must be stored in VRAM, so size of VRAM and power of GPU is the most important thing.


If you plan to eventually add physics to the engine then 64 bit support might be a good idea. Not to mention many modern GPUs are increasing VRAM to around 6GBs and higher and its only expected to increase.





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werdnaforeverDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:22 | Message # 1048
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New 32 bit OSs days are numbered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Microsoft is planning on making next major windows version 64 bit only. Apple, as uninnovative as they are, still isn't afraid of making big changes, and sooner or later they'll drop 32-bit support entirely (and Mac developers will basically be forced to recompile).

And even if it's not the next major windows version, it will still happen soon.

I just see all these 32 bit programs, and the developers say how there's no need to switch to 64 bit, but they'll have to at one point or another if they want people using newer machines to be able to use their software. I understand that they have their reasons, but as I said, 32-bit OSs are in decline. All those developers will eventially be saying how they ended up switching because the latest version of (theOSinquetion) only supports 64 bit programs.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong about this, then talk to me in 5-10 years. The technology industry moves on whether everyone upgrades or not...

Space Engine is still a new program, so the sooner a transition happens the less sudden it has to be. Better now or a couple versions from now than some kind of rushed transition because Windows 9 or 10 won't run 32 bit programs but it's a crazy success and everyone's upgraded, or a scenario like that. I understand that multi-core support is much more important.

Also, imagine running Space Engine, 64 bit, on a pc with 32 terrabytes of ram, with a 1Thz processor. You have 120FPS with a raytracing engine and spaceships and colonies with tens of millions of polygons each and complete interiors. Terrain has pixels down to .1mm, including supergiants. You can mine planets for resources, thereby creating custom terrain in real time, and it all gets loaded into memory every time you come back. That will not happen on a 32 bit os, my friends.

Or Vladimir could rewrite it in 16 bit code for Windows 3.0. Downgrades are the new upgrades, people! SE could run in 256 colors at 640x480 and on 16MB of ram, with a 486 processor. Oh, wait, Seinfeld's on, gotta go end this post to watch it. Also, I've got to check my AOL mail. BTW I can't wait to disprove Y2K to everyone once it happens. EDIT: i mean when it doesn't happen


Edited by werdnaforever - Saturday, 13.04.2013, 01:20
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:22 | Message # 1049
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Quote (werdnaforever)
Microsoft is planning on making next major windows version 64 bit only

And when might that be? Because they seem to be ~3-5 years between versions...

Quote (werdnaforever)
And even if it's not the next major windows version, it will still happen soon.

If it's not the next major Windows release then that means it will take the better part of a decade to happen. That is certainly not my definition of "soon". More like Blizzard's definition of soon.

Quote (werdnaforever)
Windows 9 or 10 won't run 32 bit programs

As you are no doubt aware, a 64-bit OS can run a 32-bit app with no problems (as evidenced by the fact that everyone here with a 64-bit OS can run SE). So that does not make any sense. However, they will switch to 64-bit simply because it is the new standard and there will no longer be any reason not to.





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midtskogenDate: Saturday, 13.04.2013, 11:22 | Message # 1050
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
As you are no doubt aware, a 64-bit OS can run a 32-bit app with no problems (as evidenced by the fact that everyone here with a 64-bit OS can run SE). So that does not make any sense.

Depends on what is meant by "wont run 32 bit programs". A program is either entirely 32 bit or entirely 64 bit, both executable and whatever libraries it uses. It's not unthinkable that a future 64 bit OS wont include an extra set of 32 bit dynamic libraries, a dual set is surely a pain to maintain, and then a lot of software wont run anymore, but the OS should still run 32 bit programs if they're completely self contained, i.e. statically linked. EDIT: Or come with all dynamic libraries, even those normally provided by the OS.





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Edited by midtskogen - Saturday, 13.04.2013, 07:47
 
Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Totally off-topic thread (Talk about anything.)
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