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Forum » SpaceEngine » Off-topic Discussions » Space Stuff Collection (Post here any random space stuff you want to share)
Space Stuff Collection
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 13:29 | Message # 136
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What we really need is for all lamps to be infrared and for all cars and people to be equipped with infrared vision yes




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midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 13:49 | Message # 137
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What we really need is for all lamps to be infrared and for all cars and people to be equipped with infrared vision

Then we would be complaining about light pollution washing out all those brightly infrared stars in the sky!

A somewhat unusual picture (Aqua satellite) taken yesterday:


A bushfire (red area a bit left of the centre, and smoke visible) in southern Norway at this time of the year. But it's been very dry this winter, March in particular (my own weather station recorded 9 mm precipitation and only 30% cloud cover - normal here is 60%).





NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI


Edited by midtskogen - Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 13:55
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 13:56 | Message # 138
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Then we would be complaining about light pollution blurring out all those brightly infrared stars in the sky!

Not really, since we don't view IR with the naked eye. Also, it could be narrow band IR so that observatories could filter it out.





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midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 14:04 | Message # 139
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Not really, since we don't view IR with the naked eye. Also, it could be narrow band IR so that observatories could filter it out.

If we had infrared vision, wouldn't we want to view IR with the naked eye? Yes, narrow band will be good, and we can do that now in the visible range. It works well in the fog, is gentle with the night vision. The only drawback is poorer colour rendering, and I'm afraid that esthetics will be favoured over science and safety.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 14:09 | Message # 140
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If we had infrared vision, wouldn't we want to view IR with the naked eye?

I didn't mean native IR vision, I meant IR vision by using some sort of infrared display goggles/hud/eyepiece, something that you would just equip when you needed it, and remove when you didn't. Your natural vision would still be normal.





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midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 14:23 | Message # 141
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I didn't mean native IR vision, I meant IR vision by using some sort of infrared display goggles/hud/eyepiece, something that you would just equip when you needed it, and remove when you didn't. Your natural vision would still be normal.

Ok, but that would be impractical for pedestrians who might not simply trust that the drivers see them.

[For US residents: It's common in other countries to walk, even outside city centres. I have at least twice during visits to the US, and I've not been over that many times, experienced while walking along roads, not highways or anything like that, that cars have stopped offering help assuming that my car broke down or something. If it's just a couple of km to walk, I often prefer to walk even if I have a car which I in those cases often rather regard as 1500 kg of luggage that I don't want to drag along if I don't have to.] wink





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 20:56 | Message # 142
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that would be impractical for pedestrians who might not simply trust that the drivers see them.

Don't they have to simply trust that the drivers see them right now anyway? Also, they can do what we already do, buy IR-specific retroreflectors to wear, or wear little IR lights on themselves if they're worried about being hit. But with the IR system I envision an amount of lighting similar to what we have now, so if pedestrians are safe at present then they should be just as safe here.

Quote (midtskogen)
It's common in other countries to walk, even outside city centres.

I like to walk too, but depending on where you live in the US it can be quite impractical. In many places in the country (especially in the south) things are so spread out that you actually need a car to get anywhere. Fortunately where I live things are more consolidated and you can walk to most places that you would need to go without extreme difficulty.





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midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 21:44 | Message # 143
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if pedestrians are safe at present then they should be just as safe here.

If it was dark and cars didn't have any visible lights, I think walking along the road would be a pretty scary experience. Imagine more or less invisible cars zipping past you at 80 km/h. I don't think I would think that it's pretty safe because the drivers can see me though I can't see them.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I like to walk too, but depending on where you live in the US it can be quite impractical.

It's also impractical because many roads in the US don't have a shoulder or a pedestrian lane. Even in towns. Some places you're forced either to walk in the lane where cars drive or across people's lawns. It makes me think, what? who planned this?

I've seen another proposal for fixing light pollution for astrophotography, to use a time multiplexed scheme. All lighting in a city would have to blink in at a fixed frequency synchronously, and observatories would make their photographs by allowing exposure only in the opposite phase of the lighting. I suppose it would have to be dictated by the AC in the power grid, but I don't know if it would at all be practical (is the synchronisation kept across transforming stations, for instance?)





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 22:39 | Message # 144
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Quote (midtskogen)
If it was dark and cars didn't have any visible lights, I think walking along the road would be a pretty scary experience.

But they would be visible since you would be wearing IR goggles, as I already mentioned.

Quote (midtskogen)
It's also impractical because many roads in the US don't have a shoulder or a pedestrian lane.

Very true, unfortunately sad

Quote (midtskogen)
but I don't know if it would at all be practical

And depending on the frequency of the blinking the speed of light could complicate things too, so I'd say that it is definitely not the most practical solution. It also would not really help people making observations with their eyes or basic camera equipment.

Actually it's really not that hard to cut back on light pollution just by having sensible lighting regulations (see Flagstaff, AZ, USA for one of the most famous cities to enact such regulations).





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Tuesday, 02.04.2013, 22:40
 
midtskogenDate: Wednesday, 03.04.2013, 07:45 | Message # 145
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But they would be visible since you would be wearing IR goggles

As I said, impractical.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Actually it's really not that hard to cut back on light pollution just by having sensible lighting regulations (see Flagstaff, AZ, USA for one of the most famous cities to enact such regulations).

It's not "just by having sensible lighting regulations". Another issue is something that will enforce them. The EU/EEC area is required to implement norms like EN-12913 and EN-12464 which adopts the recommendation given by the International Commission on Illumination in CIE-150, which limits the amount of obtrusive light allowed. But you will find it hard to get anyone to observe the limits. Even in Norway where we have relatively much space which makes it easier to satisfy the requirements. I've tried for a sports stadium about to be built. The people building it and their contractors weren't aware of the requirements and when I convinced them of their existence they've just laughed me in the face saying no way. Everybody openly ignores the requirements. The regulations are in place. I also found that the rules for public financial support explicitly require the norms to be observed. The Planning and Building Service writes to me that this is not their responsibility. The department responsible for the payment writes to me (in spite of showing them the letter from the former) that this is the responsibility of the Planning and Building Service. Millions of taxpayer money get spent. You get the idea. It's impossible. Corrupted. I've sent the correspondence to control authorities. Nothing happens. There still are some regulations still remaining to be put to the test, but it must now wait until construction is completed and results can be measured. It will be interesting to see how this ends. There is absolutely now doubt that both regulations and laws are broken in this case. But, hey, this is sports. Bread and circus. For the best of the children. Etc.





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Edited by midtskogen - Wednesday, 03.04.2013, 07:46
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 03.04.2013, 08:01 | Message # 146
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Quote (midtskogen)
As I said, impractical.

No more impractical than wearing clothing, which you don't seem to object to. You might say "well, I need clothes to keep warm outside". Yes, and if all lamps were IR then you would need goggles to see now wouldn't you? Also, it would be a driving force for the innovation of smaller, better, and more comfortable IR vision technologies. So yes, practical enough.

Quote (midtskogen)
It's not "just by having sensible lighting regulations". Another issue is something that will enforce them.

You make a law. Police enforce the law. If the government decides to stop enforcing its own laws, then revolt and form a new government that will. It's not that difficult of a concept. Also, as I mentioned there are already places with such regulations that have met with success. So clearly it can be done.





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midtskogenDate: Wednesday, 03.04.2013, 09:06 | Message # 147
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You make a law. Police enforce the law.

Modern societies are highly regulated and have way more laws than the police will enforce and the people will care or even know about. The laws themselves often state that they are to be enforced by bureaucrats and their subjective assessments. The police only care about a small subset of the laws. The rest is lawyer and court fodder.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
If the government decides to stop enforcing its own laws, then revolt and form a new government that will. It's not that difficult of a concept.

I think you overestimate the power of politicians. The real power is with the bureaucrats, and politicians only sporadically interfer, and even then it's more often a result of lobbying rather than of an election. But the bureaucracy is not necessarily a bad system. Bureaucrats might be well educated, while most politicians are pretty clueless.





NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI


Edited by midtskogen - Wednesday, 03.04.2013, 09:07
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 03.04.2013, 09:33 | Message # 148
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Quote (midtskogen)
Paragraph 1

As I have stated a few times, it has already been proven effective in some places so it can and does work, therefore the rest is irrelevant.

Quote (midtskogen)
I think you overestimate the power of politicians.

I never said anything about politicians, but they do in theory have the power. In practice it is not used for a variety of reasons. None of which has much to do with light pollution. Politicians can make the laws. If the system will not enforce the laws, then the politicians should hold it accountable and change the system. If the politicians will not change the system, then the people need to hold them accountable and change the politicians. If the people will not change the politicians, then we just need to destroy humanity because we can't do anything right.

When I was talking about IR and regulations, I was referring to how to affect change in principle. I was not talking about putting it into practice and the associated details. So arguing details of implementation is senseless.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Sunday, 07.04.2013, 16:34 | Message # 149
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Istanbul, Turkey





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anonymousgamerDate: Sunday, 07.04.2013, 16:36 | Message # 150
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Istanbul, Turkey


I travel there every year and I did not realize it was that bright at night.





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