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Forum » SpaceEngine » Gameplay Discussions » How space battles would be in SE?
How space battles would be in SE?
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Friday, 19.09.2014, 01:13 | Message # 61
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Quote Zaddy23 ()
so I just assumed it would be cheaper to build wormhole "Jumpgates" rather than install and Alcubierre drive on all of the ships


It's actually the other way around. It would be easier to build an Alcubierre drive than a wormhole.

The "Jump drive" feature of the current FTL system invalidates the need for jump gates. In some way it is like a personal jump gate that allows you to jump to any system.

The issue with wormholes, at least in a classical comparative sense, is they are very costly things to manufacture and keep functioning. They also have too many drawbacks in comparison to the Aclubierre drive. The Alcubierre drive is a self contained FTL unit that is only limited in terms of speed by the amount of energy you put in, you can go anywhere.

Depending on the type of wormhole used in the jump gates, you may need an Alcubierre drive to use them, meaning you have no use for those wormholes to begin with.





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schwarzwolfDate: Friday, 19.09.2014, 20:45 | Message # 62
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To be honest, i never liked the idea of Jumpgates, regardless of the game. Its of course easier to implement a jumpgate leading to a fixed position in a area, as giving the player the ability to fly everywhere. So to my thinking, i think, the jumpgates are more a gameplay wise idea to keep things simple, as a good feature. In Elite: Dangerous is a hybrid system. You have a free flight frame shift drive you can make a hyperjump with and your ship ends up always near the sun and can fly to its target from there. In some circumstances, it has the advance, that the game hasn't to calculate the area you exit, if there is an object, etc. or something and that the devs don't have to implement a system to avoid the player jumping accidently into another object like a ship, station, etc.
In Elite Dangerous, the interplanetary frameshift is dropping the player always out in an distance from about 20 km. At least, when the game doesn't have a bug. And this happend already two times by me. The ship was then inside the station, but bugged and i got a amount of damage the first time.
So for me i endorse the Alcubierre drive. A wormhole drive would be nice aswell at some point, but donno if the technology could be enhanced enough in the game.

As another idea i had already could be some drive limitation. That only motherships can jump into the warp, but smaller ships (larger as the shuttles) could contain the space warp, but would need some kind of accelerator ring, to charge their own drive up. The ship would have to fly trough this ring then. If i remember correctly, SpaceEngineer mentioned such a system, who charge the ring of a smaller ship up aswell already. Only question is, how this can be combined with the nessesary speed. If you have to fly with 500 km/s or what you need for a warp trough the ring, it could be a bit complicated. wink
 
kalaeonDate: Monday, 29.12.2014, 15:51 | Message # 63
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What if there was a Schlock Mercentary type deal, with teraport, but modified? So, large spacegates go to different galaxies, but within a galaxy, warp or whatever is used. You could warp tio a different galaxy and whatever, but it makes it exponentially longer then a gate. And each gate is daisy chained from closest points between galaxies? so, like a gate to andromeda, gate to magellan clouds, and jump from those outwards?
 
parameciumkidDate: Monday, 29.12.2014, 20:55 | Message # 64
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^ I was about to suggest something similar myself. In EVE Online, both warp drives and jump gates are implemented. In that case it's really due to limitations on the server, but it would indeed take weeks to warp in a ship from one star system all the way over to another in EVE.
Could we just make a really fast warp drive? Yes. In fact one could argue that the existing hypothetical Alcubierre drive has no speed limit and we can use it to zip from one end of the universe to the other in five seconds. But on one hand, I have doubts about that (nothing else in the universe is quite that silly) and on the other, let's think about gameplay: adding a wee bit of difficulty getting around will ensure that Space Engine's big universe remains as such and has plenty of room for everyone in it.

Long story short I too propose we have warp for short distances and gates for long ones.





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Edited by parameciumkid - Monday, 29.12.2014, 20:56
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Monday, 29.12.2014, 21:17 | Message # 65
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Quote parameciumkid ()
In fact one could argue that the existing hypothetical Alcubierre drive has no speed limit and we can use it to zip from one end of the universe to the other in five seconds


Last I checked the math and physics said otherwise. The warp speed limit is about 10^32c, roughly 3.3 trillion trillion light years per second. Thats fast enough for SE considering you could get to the edge of the visible universe in around 4.4 femtoseconds.

Quote parameciumkid ()
Long story short I too propose we have warp for short distances and gates for long ones.


The whole point of this engine is for free roam exploration of the entire universe. A jump gate removes that core function of the game. If I go to Alpha Centauri and use the jump gate do I come out of another gate? If I come out of another gate how do I get to another unexplored galaxy? If the gates generate a wormhole that opens anywhere in the universe and I go through and then the wormhole closes how do I get back to Earth if I am 100Glys away? If I can just use my warp drive to get home then why have gates at all to begin with?

I am sure you can see there are too many issues with jump gates and wormholes.

Ships and gameplay have a very long way to go before they function the way they're supposed to. You can't manually fly very far currently in SE without using the "Go To" button due to how slow ships are and how primitive the hyperdrive is, but the "Go To" function is basically a built in jump drive.

The only reason I ever see to add wormholes in any sense to the engine would be for scientific presentations in the planetarium or for the single player sandbox version that would support mods. It would be interesting to have scientifically accurate representations of wormholes for presentations.





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parameciumkidDate: Tuesday, 30.12.2014, 05:12 | Message # 66
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Indeed, the point of Space Engine at this point is free-roaming exploration. Accordingly, for the time being and for players in "sandbox" mode, or whatever we call it, a simple system for running all over the universe should stay in place. But if this is going to become some kind of MMO later on, there will likely be a need to impose limits on players' movements.
The jump gates I was imagining would simply connect two predefined points. Perhaps, for example, a player can find a cool star system that has a lot of [insert resource here] and build a gate connecting it to a system that he or she has industrialized, facilitating movement between the two where there would have been difficulty warping everything.
This is, again, me speculating about a far-off future version of SE that has a full game system running.





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DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 30.12.2014, 05:21 | Message # 67
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Quote parameciumkid ()
Perhaps, for example, a player can find a cool star system that has a lot of [insert resource here] and build a gate connecting it to a system that he or she has industrialized, facilitating movement between the two where there would have been difficulty warping everything.


That actually might be an interesting mechanic of sorts if it were done right, almost like an interactive 3D go to bookmarked location.

It would be pretty neat if such gates were actually rendered, sorta like this


But again to some extent it seems to go against SE's core gameplay, but in some way it wouldn't considering you would have to free roam to find such systems and build such gates. All of this is interesting to think about, but we have a long wait ahead of us to see where things go.





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schwarzwolfDate: Wednesday, 31.12.2014, 15:39 | Message # 68
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Donno, why this is actually in the space battle thread.

To the spacegates. Thats always such a thing. There have to be 2 gates at each end for the wormhole. Question now is, how did the other gate get there?

So having a gate network is something a bit difficult. The idea to build both and use them for a fast transport of ships, on the other hand would be a nice idea. A mothership could build the gate between the 2 systems and then, smaller ships without a alcubierre drive, like transport ships could use the gates to get between 2 systems. For the animation, well the rings could be a problem to get trough the jumppoint. wink
Question is aswell, if some sort of catapult could be used to "throw" a ship at a higher and faster distance.

To the range and ability to fly everywhere with the alcubierre drive, i am aswell not to happy with this aswell. For the planetary mode and free form mode yes, for the progress mode not so much.

I thought about the problem and come with a configuration i played around. Was more of some mind game, because i like to play around with it and haven't posted it here, but because the topic is up-to-date again, i will post it here.

So first of all, i would seperate engines and reactor core. The player would aswell have the element to design the ship then and balance it out, that the power output is appropriate for the engines.

Then i would break it down in different technologies. Possible would be the option to start at different tech areas.
For the alcubierre engines, i would only use a partial zero point effect. So that this would provide most of the power to explain, how the engine could work with less power, but it would need an reactor to keep it running. As more power the reactor can provide, as higher the speed. More advanced drives could be aswell more efficient in power consumation.

Tech Level 1:
fission reactors: uranium, thorium
charged rocket engines (powered by a nuclear reactor, large fuel consumation, high acceleration)
ion engines (normal and vasimir, very low acceleration, below 1g. So using them would take some time, but would be slow)

Tech Level 2:
fusion reactor
plasma engine (would use the engine and the plasma from the reactor for acceleration. This is already planned, but i would seperate engine and reactor. for more gameplay possibilities. About 10g should be fine for this engine)
This would be of course the main power methode, because we have gas giants in many systems.

zero point generator (very low power output, no fuel)
quantum vacuum thrusters (no fuel, but low engine to power rotation. Combined with the ZPG, it would only have low acceleration. So 1g or less.)
So this would be a very slow mothership, but would be able to operate even without fuel.

antimatter reactor (how already stated in the right thread, it would be very very difficult to produce SpaceEngineers already suggested some systems. Don't have the link atm. This could be used to generate a larger amount of the fuel, for only one ship, send it to another galaxy and build a gate there. Possible near a black hole to have a direct connection between the galaxy.)
antimatter engine (most likely a waste, but would give the possibility to have a very high acceleration)
So you would most likely end up with a extremely large (large station sized) and expansive antimatter production facility, who would produce fuel for only one mothership, but this would have a very large output and could even travel between galaxies.

hybrid engine:
This engine would be a fusion reactor, who can use antimatter as some kind of afterburner. The reactor would be larger and would aswell need antimatter tanks, but it can be used with hydrogen and antimatter. Of course it won't be as effective, as an pure fusion or antimatter reactor.

So now the to weapons. At least the thread is for the SE.

Ideas i have:
missiles, torpedos (warheards: chemical, nuclear (not very effective in space, but on planets and would send an emp), ion (emp weapon), neutron (anti lifeforms), plasma (very effective in space), antimatter (very difficult to use and devastating)
lasers (IR, UV, x-ray, gamma, etc.)
railguns (fast firing, small projectiles. Something like a fighter defense)
coilguns (large hitters, single fire. Could aswell fire projectiles with warheads)
particle canons (i personally think about a laser, who is using the gravity effect (like a tractor beam) and is sending particles (possible plasma) to an target. Not the range of a pure laser, but with the plasma more devastating)
plasma canons (plasma bolts, would only work on short distance, but would be devastating. The plasma would decompose very fast and could be used aswell as defense)

For defense. Well thats a difficult topic. Conventionel shields are a no go. But i tought about a defense system like this:
tritanium (normal hull, hardened versions)
neutronium (this would be a very high advenced technology and would be very very thin)
semi liquid hull (The hull would absorb enemy weapon fire. But would be very soft)
graphene nanotube layer (very good against projectile weapons)
photochromic layer (very good against laser weapons)
electromagnetic shields (very good against strong stellar radiation, would interferenc the target systems of missiles/torpedos)
plasma shields (this would be a plasmafield around the ship, who would work against missiles and torpedos. Aswell projectiles with warheads and the plasma bolts would explode in the plasma field. Massive projectiles, lasers and particlebeams would penetrate the field)

So we would have a multi layer defense system.

For sensor systems, i would use passive and active sensors.
Active would be broadband radar, able to detect objects, but not able to identify them
and smallband radar, not able to detect objects, because it has to be directed on an already detected object, but would be able to identify it.

Then for passive scanners i would go aswell with infrared, electron and magnetic scanners. How mentioned before, it should work more as a cat and mouse game. So scanning the area with a active system would give the enemy a hind, because their sensors would be able to detect the energy. Energy like electric particles, heat as infrated energy, etc. should aswell give the position away.

At the end, it should be some guess game. The computer of the ship should be able to detect another ship aswell, but it should be able for the player to get the position way earlier, if he know how to handle the systems. Silent running, etc. should be in aswell.
 
IdgeliosDate: Monday, 05.01.2015, 04:18 | Message # 69
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Combat is really hard for me to imagine in PvP, PvE with some self-replicating probes, a type one civilization that attacks you with spaceships of their own if provoked or having to contend with some highly xenophobic or territorial jupiter brain not liking a player's intrusion to its corner. Really only things that would mix things up and add some AI-based hazards to watch out for when exploring the universe. [even if it is likely the player may simply evade such regions... However much those regions would house very interesting worlds indeed]. PvP wouldn't be done for resources, needless to say.

PvP would pretty much be done to be king of sol or easter egg systems at most, not many "holy sites" for players to fight over. PvP for competition/eSports is the best reason I can imagine, and given how many places to fight there are tournaments could be fun.

Combat itself I pray is not nearly as rigid as some people want it; natural worm holes for randomly launching one's self to a distant corner of the universe to get lost [or not, given the player can just look up the milky way from even the fringes of the universe]. However I hope no stealth is added, in a game where you can dash off to some randoms system, stealth comes off as pointless and limiting in a game where constantly moving from system to system is the norm. Not to mention I heard stealth in space isn't feasible. Maybe I could get a relativistic missile to launch at some planet one day? I know one of the todos is modifiable terrain, and being able to make some nice, big craters adds to the scenery.


Edited by Idgelios - Monday, 05.01.2015, 04:20
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Monday, 05.01.2015, 06:54 | Message # 70
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Quote Idgelios ()
PvP would pretty much be done to be king of sol or easter egg systems at most


I have mentioned this before. I think what should happen is known systems that could be colonized like Sol/Alpha Centauri/Proxima should be no combat zones. Perhaps the closest or most habitable cataloged systems would all be part of something like "United Earth Systems Alliance" or some other name. That way the online game would avoid human stupidity by not allowing players to take over Earth or the solar system but would still let players use resources or make an outpost or whatever in the Sol system or closest star systems.

The Earth, moon, and Mars definitely should be no combat zones and already colonized with cities and be the jewels of civilization so to speak.

Quote Idgelios ()
Not to mention I heard stealth in space isn't feasible.


How so? If stealth is possible on Earth then it most certainly is possible in space. In fact stealth should be far easier in space.





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IdgeliosDate: Monday, 05.01.2015, 18:04 | Message # 71
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Quote DoctorOfSpace ()
How so? If stealth is possible on Earth then it most certainly is possible in space. In fact stealth should be far easier in space.


Mainly since anyone detecting people in space would be easy since the heat spaceships give off, especially when accelerating, would be detected for multiple AU with sensors today:

http://txchnologist.com/post....yager-1

Voyager doesn't give off nearly as much energy the spaceships here are likely to give off.

Although my main argument really resides more in how easy it would be to evade people in space engine; frantically warp to another star system and you're free!
 
AerospacefagDate: Monday, 05.01.2015, 19:01 | Message # 72
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DoctorOfSpace, Idgelios, we discussed it with Space Engineer one time, and he still believes that it is impossible.
Really, it is very difficult to hide heat emissions because space is cold and only hot objects in space are actually stars and some planets. Of course, we can still spot Voyager, but only because we know where it is and what it is.

IMO, still, it is possible to hide everything giving off the ship. The engine emissions can be narrowed to narrow beam, the heat can be given off in different directions, avoiding the contact in IR spectrum, and radio waves can be absorbed or redirected as well. There can even be a simple deployable screen that will shield all emissions, turning the ship into dumb space rock.

The only problem, of course, is that you can't do much being dumb space rock, and your enemy can flood the space with hundreds of telescopes and millions of micro probes that will scan all the space around them and transmit information, leaving no chance for any stray portion of electromagnetic emissions to escape without detection.

OTOH, I f we use FTL capable ships, then emissions on EM spectrum not one of our problem, and we will have to invent something completely different.

Quote DoctorOfSpace ()
I have mentioned this before. I think what should happen is known systems that could be colonized like Sol/Alpha Centauri/Proxima should be no combat zones.

I also have written some of the details for the setting which could probably used for the game, but it was two years ago on different forum, so only if you have enough patience to look through several pages in Google translate that might help you to see some of my ideas.
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Monday, 05.01.2015, 19:17 | Message # 73
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Quote Aerospacefag ()
we can still spot Voyager, but only because we know where it is and what it is.

And we can only see it when it is transmitting radio signals towards us. When it's not transmitting, we cannot detect it.





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parameciumkidDate: Monday, 05.01.2015, 21:35 | Message # 74
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^ This is why I still have fair confidence in ships getting away with radiators and stuff. Earlier there was a discussion in which it was brought up that radiators glow strongly in the infrared spectrum (actually, was that here? Maybe I got this and the KSP forum mixed up...) and would make a ship very easy to detect and target by its enemies. But at large distances, the sheer vastness of space is an effective enough fog of war. Unless your ship has the luminosity of a planet, it'll be undetectable at only a few AUs (unless your opponent is lucky enough to be looking in just the right direction at the right time).

The practical upshot, I suppose, is that SE battles may be more commonly in the form of standoffs between a number of ships based around one planet fending off a fleet trying to invade from some other planet (rather than the common trope of ships fighting at close range a la Star Wars).





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Edited by parameciumkid - Monday, 05.01.2015, 21:36
 
WatsisnameDate: Tuesday, 06.01.2015, 00:44 | Message # 75
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Quote Aerospacefag ()
There can even be a simple deployable screen that will shield all emissions, turning the ship into dumb space rock.


There's nothing simple about such a screen, not the least of which being that it is thermodynamically impossible. If you could literally prevent all emissions, then temperature would steadily increase inside, making the screen hot, which would cause blackbody emission.





 
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