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Forum » SpaceEngine » General Discussions » Life doesn't exist around red giants in SE v0.94 - 0.95
Life doesn't exist around red giants in SE v0.94 - 0.95
TalismanDate: Saturday, 19.11.2011, 09:15 | Message # 1
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No really, someone post an image of a terra with life orbiting a large red giant type star (just go to the area above and below the edges of the galaxy and turn magnitude up a bit, none will have life, i've been searching for weeks and even in 0.94, I've come to the conclusion that this might be some glitch or maybe something with the planet age generation isn't long enough or something. You can easily find a few rare terras with perfect conditions but none with life.

I mean red giants could have planets that last long enough/survive long enough to evolve life right?

Also, I think any type of blue star is effected by this bug as well.







Edited by Talisman - Saturday, 19.11.2011, 09:17
 
lexrazorDate: Saturday, 19.11.2011, 09:57 | Message # 2
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Every solar system in the galaxy has a habitable zone as far as i know. But you wont find life on a planet which is orbiting around pulsars or other exotic objects. Plus we pretty much have to exclude the idea that all possible life in the universe is carbon-based. There could be a posibility for silicon-based life out there. Or even in more hazardous environments. You can pretty much get an example from some organisms which are here on earth that survive in extreme conditions.
 
paradanDate: Sunday, 20.11.2011, 23:14 | Message # 3
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i remember reading somewhere that red giants throw off huge flares, and not like knock out your cell phone, but more like everything dies.
 
SpaceCoreDate: Sunday, 20.11.2011, 23:41 | Message # 4
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The small radius of the habitable zone of red giants has gravity strong enough to lock the rotation of the planet, preventing the existence of a magnetic field which protects the surface from space radiation.
 
TalismanDate: Monday, 21.11.2011, 01:22 | Message # 5
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Quote (SpaceCore)
The small radius of the habitable zone of red giants has gravity strong enough to lock the rotation of the planet, preventing the existence of a magnetic field which protects the surface from space radiation.


That still doesn't explain how there are non-tidally locked terra moons that orbit gas giants that orbit red giants which still for some reason never have life.

Also, what about blue stars?





 
lexrazorDate: Monday, 21.11.2011, 09:31 | Message # 6
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Maybe the gravity of the gas giant stabilizes the the orbit and atmosphere of the potential terra moon. Its difficult to speculate.
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Monday, 21.11.2011, 12:51 | Message # 7
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There's a simple reason why there's no life around red giants. Red giants all began as something else, some type of star smaller and less luminous. As the star reached the end of its "life" and expanded into a red giant, previously habitable planets would have been incinerated, and any worlds warm enough after expansion would be unlikely to develop life, and they would not have time to since the red giant would not be stable long enough for life to originate and evolve.
In 5 billion years, when our sun becomes a red giant, there will be no longer be any life on the surface of any world in the solar system.

As for blue stars, their life spans are too short to allow the development of life.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Monday, 21.11.2011, 16:32
 
lexrazorDate: Monday, 21.11.2011, 14:25 | Message # 8
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there's a possibility for Europa tho
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Monday, 21.11.2011, 16:03 | Message # 9
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You're absolutely right. But that's sub-surface life. Space Engine only considers life on the surface of planets (even Earth lacked this for its first 4 billion years). When the Sun becomes a red giant, the best case for Europa would be a global ocean, but without an atmosphere it wouldn't be stable (and pure H2O doesn't make for a viable atmosphere on low-mass worlds). So unless it has inert ices in its crust that can sublimate to form a stable atmosphere it won't be any better off than it is now (which might be made a moot point as the intense radiation environment that close to Jupiter would probably strip Europa clean of any atmosphere it formed).

So for red giants in SE, it would be theoretically plausible to allow Oceanias with life, but not Terras.

Neptune's moon Triton would be pretty comfortable when the Sun expands, as would Pluto and other Kuiper Belt objects. But they're so frozen now that they almost certainly have no life, so when the Sun starts dying they will merely be habitable, not inhabited.

UPDATE: I just did some checking, and apparently even Triton and Pluto will be too hot when the Sun expands. Europa would probably be evaporated, as well as Saturn's moons. So not much hope for red giants with life it seems :/





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Monday, 21.11.2011, 16:31
 
lexrazorDate: Tuesday, 22.11.2011, 02:16 | Message # 10
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well we still have 5 bilion years to figure out if they can sustain any life lol
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 22.11.2011, 23:33 | Message # 11
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Yeah, if we don't kill ourselves in the next 5 thousand! :P




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TalismanDate: Wednesday, 23.11.2011, 00:54 | Message # 12
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
and any worlds warm enough after expansion would be unlikely to develop life,


Perhaps, it all depends on what's the fastest life can evolve. Maybe life can evolve in just a couple million years given some unknown extremely perfect parameters, Also gas giants don't always strip away atmospheres for example Titan. I think life could exist around red giants, but it's most likely not very common.

I'd love to have SpaceEngineer reply to this topic and see his view.







Edited by Talisman - Wednesday, 23.11.2011, 00:56
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 23.11.2011, 14:06 | Message # 13
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I agree, I'd like to hear SpaceEngineer's opinion as well. And you're right, it might be possible for life to arise. That would probably depend on whether there are enough organic molecules on worlds like Pluto to get biology started. And red giants are short-lived and variable so any life would have to evolve under very extreme and harsh conditions if it was near the surface of the planet, probably not good for life just starting out. But it is possible.

You mentioned gas giants, and I'm confused as to how that connects to red giants (it would help if there weren't so many 'giants'!). As for Titan when the Sun expands, it would probably lose its atmosphere; Saturn's magnetosphere may protect it from the brunt of the solar wind, but Titan's temperature at that time would likely be something like 900+ Kelvin, and a world that size cannot hold onto an atmosphere with that much heat.





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lexrazorDate: Wednesday, 23.11.2011, 16:51 | Message # 14
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and we still dont know what kind of effect would a red giant have on gas giants. it could heat up the gasses more igniting them or pull/push the planet from its current orbit. at least i think its possible
 
SpaceEngineerDate: Wednesday, 23.11.2011, 22:08 | Message # 15
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You can't find life in blue stars systems due to the small age (and lifetime) of blue stars. In SE, the star should have at least an age of 100-million years to develop life. For this reason you cannot find life on bright (luminous) red giants, because they are formed from blue stars. But you can find life on tiny red giants, that are formed from sun-like stars. They have lifetime of about 1-billion years at the red giant stage, so this gives melted icy planets a lot of time to develop new life, or old life can migrate to new worlds from destroyed terra planets (panspermia or intelligent life). Since red giants are unstable, life should develop advanced protection mechanisms, as long as life is in red dwarf systems: Red dwarfs often have super solar flashes that increases luminosity of a star several times.

Of course, SE does not model any conditions on planets, except temperature. Future development will improve life generation and planetary surface generation itself. For example, young terra planets with life will look the same as terras without life: they are only bacteria lifeforms in ocean. More advanced terras will have green oceans filled with photosynthesis creatures and have desert land-masses. Life can exist under an ice crust on ice worlds; inside atmospheres of gas giants, and nitrogen-based life on cold Titan-like worlds, etc.

Maybe we could start a new topic where we can discuss and develop 'future life' classification for SE?

*





 
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