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Forum » SpaceEngine » General Discussions » Truth is in space war would not exist.
Truth is in space war would not exist.
midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 22:04 | Message # 16
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Quote HarbingerDawn ()
scarcity of satisfaction

I think that sums it up. And for that reason the original argument about infinite resources in space fails. Let's say you give a toy to a kid. Another kid wants it and starts a fight. Then you give an identical toy to the second kid. Does the fight stop? No. The second kid only wants the other kid's toy, of course.





NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI
 
DinoflyDate: Wednesday, 05.03.2014, 01:26 | Message # 17
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We are not talking about kids, we are talking about advanced civilizations with an extreme rational thinking.

I'm also sure that an intergalactic-transportation capable civilization is religion free, but that's debatable too.

Quote midtskogen ()
So... just as on earth, when someone invades your country, you could just move to another place? Much of the world is still pretty inhabited.


Much of the inhabitaded world is resources free or not comfortable for living, that's the exact definition of scarcity.
Nobody would invade my country if there is the certainty that's possible to find another on par or even better country.


Edited by Dinofly - Wednesday, 05.03.2014, 01:32
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 05.03.2014, 02:08 | Message # 18
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Quote Dinofly ()
We are not talking about kids, we are talking about advanced civilizations with an extreme rational thinking.

In which case war would not exist, regardless of whether they're in space or not.

Quote Dinofly ()
I'm also sure that an intergalactic-transportation capable civilization is religion free

If they're as rational as you say, then they could not possibly be religious, at least not in any way that we think of religion.

Quote Dinofly ()
Nobody would invade my country if there is the certainty that's possible to find another on par or even better country.

If someone holds a specific place to be very important, regardless of its material significance (e.g., the Muslim claims to Jerusalem, and the Jewish and Christian claims to the whole surrounding area), then availability of resources and territory is irrelevant; everyone wants that one location, and does not want anyone else to have it. So clearly whether a civilization is confined to one planet, or exists across hundreds, does not have much impact on whether wars can happen. The important factor is how rational and reasonable the people are.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Wednesday, 05.03.2014, 02:10
 
SalvoDate: Wednesday, 05.03.2014, 09:12 | Message # 19
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Quote HarbingerDawn ()
If someone holds a specific place to be very important, regardless of its material significance ...

You're right, but we are talking about space war, usually a place become important (for a religion, for example) if it has something relatable with it, so mainly if the religion started there. If religions have such places outside earth, what Dinofly says makes sense, because it's unlikely that two religions shares the same important place, or a civility wants to conquest such place for... maybe the resources, when there are plenty of planets with the same resources.

I said "unlikely", but a situation like Avatar's one could be possible too.





The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.

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(still don't know why everyone is doing this...)
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Wednesday, 05.03.2014, 09:30 | Message # 20
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Quote Salvo ()
because it's unlikely that two religions shares the same important place

Not at all. If all the religions involved share a common origin, then this can easily happen. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as mentioned in my example, are all related religions. Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism, and Islam was largely derived from both of them. This is the main reason they all hold the same land to be sacred. It's more than just coincidence.





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DisasterpieceDate: Thursday, 06.03.2014, 01:12 | Message # 21
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Quote neutronium76 ()
Sure they can. If the other one is like independence day aliens... They will flee like flies. If they are fast enough though

But if the two are more equally matched, would you not put up a fight? While it is not a physical impossibility, and just leaving would be the 100% emotionless and rational thing to do, no one is 100% emotionless and rational. They would grow fond of their home and not leave, regardless of the technology of the other side. When the Europeans came to North America, there were people here, and they could have seen the technological advantage the Europeans had, and they could have just left. But they decided their history and home was worth too much.

Added (06.03.2014, 04:12)
---------------------------------------------

Quote midtskogen ()
I think that sums it up. And for that reason the original argument about infinite resources in space fails. Let's say you give a toy to a kid. Another kid wants it and starts a fight. Then you give an identical toy to the second kid. Does the fight stop? No. The second kid only wants the other kid's toy, of course.


This analogy describes current day politics perfectly. Small children all whining and crying over pointless things when they can just compromise.





I play teh spase engien
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Thursday, 06.03.2014, 03:30 | Message # 22
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Quote Disasterpiece ()
But they decided their history and home was worth too much.

And also that the idea that it was ok to force people off their land and remove their freedom was something worth fighting against.





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neutronium76Date: Thursday, 06.03.2014, 07:18 | Message # 23
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Quote Disasterpiece ()
But if the two are more equally matched, would you not put up a fight? While it is not a physical impossibility, and just leaving would be the 100% emotionless and rational thing to do, no one is 100% emotionless and rational. They would grow fond of their home and not leave, regardless of the technology of the other side.


When you are a space faring civilization, you have to be 100% emotionless and rational in order to survive. Space is a hostile environment by itself so there would be no need to risk lives for just a pale (put color here) dot. Species would rather flee if they have the ability. Consider Battlestar Galactica plot.

Quote Disasterpiece ()
When the Europeans came to North America, there were people here, and they could have seen the technological advantage the Europeans had, and they could have just left. But they decided their history and home was worth too much.


So where are these people now? I can't see many of them around...





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DeathStarDate: Thursday, 06.03.2014, 11:22 | Message # 24
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Quote neutronium76 ()
When you are a space faring civilization, you have to be 100% emotionless and rational in order to survive. Space is a hostile environment by itself so there would be no need to risk lives for just a pale (put color here) dot. Species would rather flee if they have the ability. Consider Battlestar Galactica plot.


First of all, do you have any proof that every space-faring civilization would be emotionless and completely rational? When we still lived in caves, the Earth was a pretty dangerous environment as well, and yet even then people weren't 100% emotionless and rational. Whether a specie is emotionless and rational or not depends on its evolutionary history, not simply whether or not they are space-faring.

Second, even if we actually take that your first argument is correct(that they are completely rational) wouldn't it make more rational sense for them to actually fight than flee and abandon everything they have, putting their existance to stake even more?

Quote neutronium76 ()
So where are these people now? I can't see many of them around...


You don't get the point, do you? What he wanted to say is that even though the native Americans were in a clearly inferior position, and the knew it, they FOUGHT, they didn't flee. Same could be said for space-faring civilizations as well. Your point that they obviously lost that war is completely irrelevant.


Edited by DeathStar - Thursday, 06.03.2014, 11:23
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Thursday, 06.03.2014, 12:01 | Message # 25
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Quote DeathStar ()
Second, even if we actually take that your first argument is correct(that they are completely rational) wouldn't it make more rational sense for them to actually fight than flee and abandon everything they have, putting their existance to stake even more?

Well not necessarily, it depends on their chances of survival in fighting vs. their chances of survival in fleeing.





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neutronium76Date: Thursday, 06.03.2014, 17:13 | Message # 26
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Quote DeathStar ()
First of all, do you have any proof that every space-faring civilization would be emotionless and completely rational?


No. Its an emotionless and rational assumption.

Quote DeathStar ()
When we still lived in caves, the Earth was a pretty dangerous environment as well, and yet even then people weren't 100% emotionless and rational


Back then it was an instinctive fight or flight response.

Quote DeathStar ()
Whether a specie is emotionless and rational or not depends on its evolutionary history, not simply whether or not they are space-faring.


I agree. However an advance-tech space-faring species would probably be emotionless and rational to a high degree. Otherwise it wouldn't reach this level of technology easily in the 1st place.

Quote DeathStar ()
You don't get the point, do you? What he wanted to say is that even though the native Americans were in a clearly inferior position, and the knew it, they FOUGHT, they didn't flee. Same could be said for space-faring civilizations as well. Your point that they obviously lost that war is completely irrelevant.


I was simply trying to make the point that resistance to a more advanced enemy is more or less futile. Therefore it would make more sense to either surrender and accept the enemies terms and conds (Harb's example here) or flee.
Or to put it bluntly:

biggrin





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Edited by neutronium76 - Thursday, 06.03.2014, 17:34
 
DinoflyDate: Saturday, 08.03.2014, 04:05 | Message # 27
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Well if a civilization that travels from planet to planet to deplete resources thinks that our resistence would be so weak that they can consider our planet free for colonization, then they will easily annihilate us.
But there would not be any war, otherwise the civilization would prefer another planet.
 
laiodDate: Monday, 07.04.2014, 17:16 | Message # 28
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In reality space war might not exist, but in video games it can.




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CesrateDate: Tuesday, 08.04.2014, 04:01 | Message # 29
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I'm sorry to bother, but has anyone considered there may not be a hyperdrive convenient enough for human to use every time?
 
MintyTwisterDate: Friday, 02.05.2014, 01:50 | Message # 30
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Pretty sure wars will always be possible.

There's races that will probably have the thirst for pure conquest, control, to rule, and having the thought of something nearby not under their rule must be forced or destroyed. I mean, it's a huge possibility. Perhaps races nearby want more planets that are already inhabited, they want them for recourse, or maybe to expand their race. Thus they decide to maybe force the race off, and if they don't comply, war.

You can say "Maybe the race is actually peaceful and will be more rational!" Keyword: Maybe. Not everything will be peaceful, there will most likely be times of blood.

This can fall the same for religion, that solar system doesn't follow our religion? We must destroy the idolaters.
 
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