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Forum » SpaceEngine » General Discussions » Truth is in space war would not exist.
Truth is in space war would not exist.
DinoflyDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 00:29 | Message # 1
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Hello everybody;
I have been thinking about the fact that the main, maybe the only, cause of human conflicts is SCARCITY, which is the base of conventional economics too.
The problem is that in a infinite universe, with infinite resources, and a technology that allows intergalactic transportation there is no reason for war and sure there's no need of any kind of economic system.
So truth is that all the sci-fi we are used to is based on our limited earth experience, no war is reasonable in space, you just would move in other systems.

Sorry for my english, i hope this would trigger an interesting debate.
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 04:39 | Message # 2
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We have a thread for discussing such things for the future game, however I am unsure if this is related to the game. If this is just about conflicts in space then it is in the wrong section.

Quote Dinofly ()
maybe the only, cause of human conflicts is SCARCITY


Not true, but it is a big contributing factor. You also have things like political and religious ideologies.

Quote Dinofly ()
The problem is that in a infinite universe


Our universe is most likely not infinite, however it is "near" infinite in terms of resources. There is more than enough for everyone. The issue is getting to the resources and making them usable.

Quote Dinofly ()
a technology that allows intergalactic transportation there is no reason for war


Unless humans or aliens decide everyone else is a threat and they choose to wipe out competitive species. Not to mention xenophobia is common amongst humans and we are all the same species. True that technology eventually gets to such high energy potentials that war could lead to a species killing itself, but this is assuming they don't unite under a common threat/goal/ideology.

Basically think about something similar to the aliens from independence day as a possibility. This species would've gotten to a point where they travel from system to system taking resources, they destroy more primitive species guaranteeing their continued survival and removing potential future threats.

I personally don't think it would happen, but I don't discount the possibility. Just because a species has spaceflight does not mean they will be peaceful.

Quote Dinofly ()
sure there's no need of any kind of economic system.


If we were all drones with no minds, and no decisions then sure there would be no economy in the hivemind. However if we keep our individual selves, or aliens do, then there will always be some form of an economy. Even in something like Star Trek where they had replicators they still had an economic system. The economic system was not based on supply and demand or money, it was however based on getting resources where they need to be for the betterment of people and mankind as a whole. People still serve a purpose in the transaction of ideas and contributions to society and everyone has access to what society can offer.

However this is assuming that things like nanofabricators, replicators, advanced 3D printers, and the likes are possible and that aliens will develop these technologies. It may be that such things are a requirement for deep space voyages, or it may be a fluke of humanity to develop such things. This is also assuming that everyone would have access to these technologies thus guaranteeing that scarcity no longer exists.

Quote Dinofly ()
no war is reasonable in space, you just would move in other systems.


Unless the moon, planet, or system holds some sort of strategic defense position, religious or political importance, or is close and rich in resources. Just because space is full of resources doesn't mean you can just pack up and go. Space is insanely big and so the farther away you go the more expensive it is going to be and we aren't talking money.





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DisasterpieceDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 04:49 | Message # 3
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I could see wars in space. I mean, if 7 billion people live on one world, united by a religion that is tied to the system, and then you tell them to go, they will not react well. And I imagine worlds that are at all terrestrial will be fought over incessantly.




I play teh spase engien
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 07:28 | Message # 4
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Quote Dinofly ()
the main, maybe the only, cause of human conflicts is SCARCITY

That's not true; many, perhaps most, conflicts are caused by ideological differences or the desire to control others.

Quote Dinofly ()
no war is reasonable in space, you just would move in other systems.

This assumes that people think rationally. If they did then we would have no wars in the first place.

Quote DoctorOfSpace ()
the farther away you go the more expensive it is going to be and we aren't talking money

With SE tech this is pretty much a non-issue. The only thing it costs you is time and some effort. The material costs are the same as going to any other location.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 07:32
 
midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 11:58 | Message # 5
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Quote Dinofly ()
no war is reasonable in space, you just would move in other systems.

So... just as on earth, when someone invades your country, you could just move to another place? Much of the world is still pretty inhabited.





NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 12:34 | Message # 6
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Quote midtskogen ()
So... just as on earth, when someone invades your country, you could just move to another place? Much of the world is still pretty inhabited.

*uninhabited

And yeah, if scarcity was the main cause of war, Russia would never invade anyone; they have huge amounts of undeveloped land. Of course, it is easier to simply steal already-developed land from others by force... but in the scenario in question, developing new land is not nearly as big an obstacle as it is today, so wars of scarcity would be non-existent. Wars would only be fought because of ideology.





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neutronium76Date: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 14:17 | Message # 7
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Quote HarbingerDawn ()
Wars would only be fought because of ideology.


Well then, if ideology/religion is an issue between two civies/groups/races/etc.. they can move into opposite directions and never encounter each other again...





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 14:45 | Message # 8
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Quote neutronium76 ()
Well then, if ideology/religion is an issue between two civies/groups/races/etc.. they can move into opposite directions and never encounter each other again...

3 religions all claim the same holy land. People from one country want others to live by their rules. None of these have anything to do with not having enough space. These people do not want to move away from each other. They all want to claim the same space or want to change how other people live. These are ideological issues.





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neutronium76Date: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 15:35 | Message # 9
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Quote HarbingerDawn ()
3 religions all claim the same holy land


In that case, yes, conflict is inevitable.

Quote HarbingerDawn ()
People from one country want others to live by their rules


In that case those that are forced to live by the other group's rules can flee.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 16:11 | Message # 10
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Quote neutronium76 ()
In that case those that are forced to live by the other group's rules can flee.

Ok. USA is invading Greece next week because we think you're not American enough and we don't like that. Feel free to move to Siberia if you don't want to live by the new rules, I hear they have plenty of land there.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 16:12
 
neutronium76Date: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 17:10 | Message # 11
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Quote HarbingerDawn ()
Ok. USA is invading Greece next week because we think you're not American enough and we don't like that. Feel free to move to Siberia if you don't want to live by the new rules, I hear they have plenty of land there.


I thought we were talking about conflict in space dry ...





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DeathStarDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 17:17 | Message # 12
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Quote neutronium76 ()
I thought we were talking about conflict in space


It doesn't really make a difference. A space-faring specie can't just abandon their homeworld, industry and heritage just because someone else wants them to live by their rules.
 
neutronium76Date: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 17:31 | Message # 13
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Quote DeathStar ()
A space-faring specie can't just abandon their homeworld, industry and heritage just because someone else wants them to live by their rules


Sure they can. If the other one is like independence day aliens... They will flee like flies. If they are fast enough though biggrin





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midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 20:23 | Message # 14
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Quote HarbingerDawn ()
*uninhabited

Thanks.

Quote HarbingerDawn ()
And yeah, if scarcity was the main cause of war, Russia would never invade anyone

Let's say that they invaded Crimea because of scarcity of political power in the region...





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 04.03.2014, 21:54 | Message # 15
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Quote midtskogen ()
Let's say that they invaded Crimea because of scarcity of political power in the region...

Touché! I guess all wars are caused simply by a scarcity of satisfaction with the status quo and a lack of desire to use peaceful methods to gain satisfaction.





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